What's a powerful camera?

See my love! <3 (Image) After using Nokia 6.1 plus and going back to Lumia 1020 feels like "WOW"! I still use this for only taking pictures.

What's a powerful camera?

navs navs
✭✭✭  /  edited December 2018
See my love! <3

After using Nokia 6.1 plus and going back to Lumia 1020 feels like "WOW"! I still use this for only taking pictures.

Comments

  • hdisowjdj3838 hdisowjdj3838
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    Wish I had the Nokia Lumia 1020! I'd use it for sure on trips and vacations.
  • navs navs
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    I take this phone out instead of dslr. That Lumia Camera app makes it extraordinary and I only have to do minor post click edits. Very minor edits alone. Pureview at it's best!
  • redskua redskua
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    i still use my Lumia 830 Pureview for critical pics especially in low light, how i love it. Just cannot get the same on my Nokia 8
  • navs navs
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    Those were the days when Nokia used huge camera and it was their selling point. For a reason now it isn't the same. We have got android, better phone designs, looks, feel, material. Imagine if we had 1020 kind of phones all around. No one would buy DSLRs until they're pro photographers.
  • madbilly madbilly
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    Hi @navs! your Lumia 1020 still looks like new, well done! Most have got scuffed and worn across the camera bump now.

    I agree that it's very strange we still don't have cameras as good as the Lumias in many cases. Only now are other brands starting to become as good as the Lumias were, but still not as good as the 1020.

    The gentleman from ZEISS that I've spoken to says it's primarily because most customers don't want a big camera bump any more, they prefer very small or no camera bump and to have a less good camera. This is one of the reasons that HMD and ZEISS decided to start working on array cameras and produced the 9PV - it's a way of collecting as much light and data as possible without needing a camera bump.

    Still, the results of the current HMD phone cameras leave something to be desired.

    Cheers :)
  • navs navs
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    @madbilly
    I am super conscious about phones. I never drop them down or keep on rough surfaces although I put a very decent case for it.
    Well what you say is true that people prefer more slim phones. 1020 had issues in my pocket most of the time.
    Array of camera implementation is although, I don't think it has the same result like 1020. Other vendors come with 48 MP camera but it never felt like it was shot on a 48MP camera. The details are just normal. Even a zoomed up image I felt a 12 MP camera was kind of better.

    HMD might come up with something new someday. Till then 1020 is always going to be there with me!
  • madbilly madbilly
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    Hi @navs!
    Yes you're right that the current quad-bayer 48MP cameras can't capture the level of detail which the 808PV and 1020PV could capture. I think this is for two reasons:
    • Pixel arrangement: quad-bayer can't capture as fine detail as well as the usual RGBG arrangement AFAIK
    • Pixel size: The pixels on the quad-bayer cameras are 0.8um, where as the 1020PV had 1.12um and the 808PV had 1.4um IIRC; this means that they can each capture more light than the pixels on the quad-bayer cameras
    I think 9PV and array-camera approach is very interesting. It has the potential for great things but unfortunately the 9PV doesn't demonstrate that yet.

    So, your 1020PV is still the king :smiley:

    Cheers :)
  • MrBelter MrBelter
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    Given this is anything goes and doesn't have to be Nokia related I'll be happy when my phone can get photos like my DSLRs




  • madbilly madbilly
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    Wow @mrbelter you took that photo?! That's awesome! Nice shimmer in the afterburner wake :smiley:
  • MrBelter MrBelter
    ✭✭✭✭  /  edited July 30
    @madbilly yes mate i took it, it was at Waddington Airshow way back in 2010.

    This is the Netherlands display F-16 in 2012 showing off its exhaust to full effect if that is your cup of tea.


  • madbilly madbilly
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    @mrbelter :smiley: Again, amazing shot! I can only imagine how you take a photo like that. I've never had anything more sophisticated than a pocket camera with zoom.
    Cheers :)
  • MrBelter MrBelter
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    Since i took that mate superzooms have so much more range than my 100-400L lens has so i expect they are even better than what my pair of 70Ds can manage although the lack of optical viewfinder and the speed of a DLR might be a hindrance for a jet doing 600mph.

    Take a look at this crazy thing.



  • madbilly madbilly
    ✭✭✭✭  /  edited July 31
    @mrbelter that is in-sane! I'm especially impressed that even at that zoom they maintain such good definition to be able to see the silhouette of the craters, although the rays on the surface are a bit fuzzy. Nice to the shimmer caused by the atmosphere too. If they took that video during night-time, with the moon high in the sky, it would be even better.
    Hi @Himanshu1712 I agree that it's somewhat difficult to love the new Nokias from HMD, but it is sometimes possible ;)
  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    I feel Nokia (HMD) could have gone with a big sensor and a few more secondary ones. As Nokia 9 PureView is purely targeted to enthusiasts they wouldn't mind a camera bump. I personally look at the camera bump as a nice design feature. Just look at those curves around the camera bump of his Nokia 909 PureView (Nokia Lumia 1020). It just adds to the overall design. I wouldn't mind a camera bump of the 1020 as it was easily hidden with a thick case from amzer. I have a 1320 and i increased the thickness of the phone to double its size and i am fine with it. If thickness means pure photos then it should be fine on a limited run device. 😍
    Just imagine a Nokia 9 PureView with a 41 or 48MP 1" sensor like the Panasonic CM1 along with a normal 12MP B&W + Wide Angle lens. We don't need a zoom lens here i guess. 😁

  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    Nokia 9 PureView is trying something new with those B&W sensors and the depth map that captures upto 1200 layers of depth info. In normal daylight the performance is amazing from what I have seen on twitter. The images are crisp with good details and high dynamic range. For low light images the pro mode is the best solution. But in reality how many photos do we really capture in extremely dark environments? I feel future updates will improve the performance of N9PV.
  • madbilly madbilly
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    Hi @Kartik Gada, you were at the photography master class in India weren't you? So you must have learnt some interesting things there!
    My main disappointment with the 9PV is that it doesn't seem to use any supersampling or zoom-by-cropping or OIS to be at least as good as the 808 or 1020 PVs; instead they took a completely different path that is better at some things (but better is subjective when it comes to contrast and sharpening) and not as good in others (fine detail, zooming and low light).
    I don't think we need anything like the CM1, we just need OIS and better algorithms - just like 5 years ago!
    I do agree though, I'm not bothered about a bit of a camera bump, and across the back of a phone the size of the 9PV it would be barely noticeable compared to the 1020 never mind the 808!
    If/when we see an evolution of the 9PV they have to get it up to par with the 1020 and 950 for detail, zoom and low light otherwise I don't understand what they're trying to achieve.
    Still, I don't think they mind as long as they make a profit! :D
    Cheers :)
  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    madbilly said:
    Hi @Kartik Gada, you were at the photography master class in India weren't you? So you must have learnt some interesting things there!
    My main disappointment with the 9PV is that it doesn't seem to use any supersampling or zoom-by-cropping or OIS to be at least as good as the 808 or 1020 PVs; instead they took a completely different path that is better at some things (but better is subjective when it comes to contrast and sharpening) and not as good in others (fine detail, zooming and low light).
    I don't think we need anything like the CM1, we just need OIS and better algorithms - just like 5 years ago!
    I do agree though, I'm not bothered about a bit of a camera bump, and across the back of a phone the size of the 9PV it would be barely noticeable compared to the 1020 never mind the 808!
    If/when we see an evolution of the 9PV they have to get it up to par with the 1020 and 950 for detail, zoom and low light otherwise I don't understand what they're trying to achieve.
    Still, I don't think they mind as long as they make a profit! :D
    Cheers :)
    Yes, I was at the masterclass and he shared many things on how to capture images and make them look interesting. It is the most memorable day of 2019. It was a 1st-time experience so I was very nervous (introvert problems LOL) plus meeting a celebrity photographer who has worked with so many big Bollywood celebs added to the nervousness hehe. The masterclass was smooth once we met him. He is a very nice person. :smile:

    Coming to the camera of Nokia 9 PureView now. Yes, the PureView tech isn't the same as old Nokia PureView which used the oversampling and lossless zoom. I didn't get the OIS part as Nokia 808 PureView didn't have any type of stabilisation. The entire tech is by Light with HMD's support. Can we call Nokia 9 PureView the light version of Light's L16 camera? :wink:

    Nokia 9 PureView has an edge in terms of superior Dynamic range, strong depth maps and RAW photography. So, it is for those who move their photos to the pc to edit after capturing them on their DSLR's. RAW images taken with Nokia 9 PureView have a lot of details to play with but then it isn't for every person. Same was the case with the Pro Mode during Lumia days. Not everyone knew how to use pro mode. Even I was a noob at pro-mode hehe. But Nokia+Lumia helped most WP users learn basics of mobile cameras, photography and play with the Pro Mode. Similarly, I feel HMD with their Nokia 9 PureView is making users learn about the RAW imaging and helping them learn how to edit photos on Lightroom mobile. Is this taking full control of the images they capture?

    5 years ago or during the PureView era most manufacturers just relied on the camera hardware. Even Nokia did the same but they did have better software expertise than others. But camera hardware played a big role. Bigger sensors = more light which in return captured better and clearer photos. Ok yes, CM1's 1" sensor is a bit too big but if it is for enthusiasts why not try it and leave a mark. :) A big sensor along with current algorithms, faster processing better ISP's will definitely do some wonders and can reach or even outperform the old PureViews. But for this to happen HMD needs to take bigger risks which I don't think is a good idea as of now. Also, current-gen is more interested in gimmicks in their cameras rather than true photography. So, even the targetted groups will be much smaller and the price would be insane. I hope at least something similar happens. If not a 40MP+ sensor at least a sensor as big as 1020 with a resolution of 20MP(maybe that was the McLaren?).

    Nokia 9 PureView is trying something completely different from what the PureView was about. It was all inhouse developed under Nokia and their amazing imaging team. Can we call this a natural evolution of PureView? No. Because this is all about the tech from Light and not something developed inhouse. Nokia 9 PureView placed its foot in the area where no other brand dared till now. They used 5 sensors, not for zoom or wide-angle photos but to capture more light and provide better end results. I can just hope that future updates to the Nokia 9 PureView will make its camera better.

    And yes, they should take a similar daring step once more just for the PureView that creates another history of being the best camera-centric android phone ever built.  :)
  • madbilly madbilly
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    Thanks for sharing your experience of the masterclass, great to hear!
    If the sensor was as big as the 1020 with 20MP resolution then the pixels would be over 2um, which is huge for a smartphone. I know this might help reduce noise and improve other things but would be nowhere near as good lossless zoom as on the 1020 or 808.
    I have no idea if this would be a good balance, but I think I would prefer that HMD continue to pursue the array camera approach because the 9PV should be able to do even better lossless zoom than the 1020, the problem is that they haven't written the software that way (or maybe the Light co-processor doesn't output enough info for the software to be able to do it... I think this is more likely, so a hardware improvement is needed).
    Cheers :)
  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    madbilly said:
    Thanks for sharing your experience of the masterclass, great to hear!
    If the sensor was as big as the 1020 with 20MP resolution then the pixels would be over 2um, which is huge for a smartphone. I know this might help reduce noise and improve other things but would be nowhere near as good lossless zoom as on the 1020 or 808.
    I have no idea if this would be a good balance, but I think I would prefer that HMD continue to pursue the array camera approach because the 9PV should be able to do even better lossless zoom than the 1020, the problem is that they haven't written the software that way (or maybe the Light co-processor doesn't output enough info for the software to be able to do it... I think this is more likely, so a hardware improvement is needed).
    Cheers :)
    The photos that took advantage of Lossless zoom were 5MP in resolution taken from a 41MP sensor which operated at 38MP. I don't know how will it go with the Noia 9 PureView as it has 12MP sensors. Those phones had so many extra pixels at their disposal to combine them and then make a much detailed 5MP Image as compared to a regular 5 MP sensor. Those extra pixels also helped with Digital Zoom without losing out on details. Nokia 9 PureView uses image stacking where up to 240MP worth of "data" is stacked on top of one another. This mostly helps in Dynamic Range.

    You might be correct that they haven't programmed it to click pictures that can take advantage of Lossless zoom. But if they make a lossless zoom version it would be much lower in a resolution (depends on how many pixels do they combine) which will not be acceptable and still I feel it won't match the quality of 808 PureView as the resolution gap will still be a lot.

    I agree Array cameras are the future for mobile phone photography and love the fact the Nokia 9 PureView was at the forefront.

    But nothing can beat Physics. The reason phone cameras can't beat the DSLR's ;)
  • madbilly madbilly
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    I see where we've got our wires crossed. I agree that 12MP isn't much to do lossless, oversampling zoom from. However, considering that the 5 cameras on the 9PV are a known distance apart this means it should be able to create a 60MP image by interpolating the 5 12MP images together. This is more than enough for lossless zoom and I'm what I described is the first step in using oversampling to bring us the final 12MP photo.
    Since 3 of the cameras are mono and therefore lack colour info it's unlikely that they could do lossless zoom to the extent that the Lumia PureViews could do it, but they should still be able to manage to do something.
    Maybe they already do this but it's not as good as the Lumia PVs therefore they haven't mentioned it. Could someone with a 9PV can try digital zoom and see what the effect is like? E.g. compared to the 8 Sirocco's 2x telephoto lens?
    Cheers :)
  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    madbilly said:
    I see where we've got our wires crossed. I agree that 12MP isn't much to do lossless, oversampling zoom from. However, considering that the 5 cameras on the 9PV are a known distance apart this means it should be able to create a 60MP image by interpolating the 5 12MP images together. This is more than enough for lossless zoom and I'm what I described is the first step in using oversampling to bring us the final 12MP photo.
    Since 3 of the cameras are mono and therefore lack colour info it's unlikely that they could do lossless zoom to the extent that the Lumia PureViews could do it, but they should still be able to manage to do something.
    Maybe they already do this but it's not as good as the Lumia PVs therefore they haven't mentioned it. Could someone with a 9PV can try digital zoom and see what the effect is like? E.g. compared to the 8 Sirocco's 2x telephoto lens?
    Cheers :)

    madbilly said:
    I see where we've got our wires crossed. I agree that 12MP isn't much to do lossless, oversampling zoom from. However, considering that the 5 cameras on the 9PV are a known distance apart this means it should be able to create a 60MP image by interpolating the 5 12MP images together. This is more than enough for lossless zoom and I'm what I described is the first step in using oversampling to bring us the final 12MP photo.
    Since 3 of the cameras are mono and therefore lack colour info it's unlikely that they could do lossless zoom to the extent that the Lumia PureViews could do it, but they should still be able to manage to do something.
    Maybe they already do this but it's not as good as the Lumia PVs therefore they haven't mentioned it. Could someone with a 9PV can try digital zoom and see what the effect is like? E.g. compared to the 8 Sirocco's 2x telephoto lens?
    Cheers :)
    I am not sure if it is that way. Nokia 9 PureView stacks the images and fuses them together. It isn't about combining the pixels and I am also not sure if that would be possible on the Nokia 9 PureView as it captures at least 5 images each time the shutter is pressed and all those 5 images are captured with different levels of ISO and Shutter Speeds. How will it combine the pixels of 5 different images and form one superpixel?

    Also, at the time of launch, they said the images captured with Nokia 9 PureView can have as much information which is equal to images of 60MP to 240MP in size They used the word data/information which suggests if the PureView captures 5 images the data captured is equal to the data of a 60MP image. They are just referring to the combined file size which reflects the information in the multiple images captured. But it isn't exactly the same amount of information that a full 60MP resolution sensor would capture.

    Lossless zoom was also useful before capturing the image. We could zoom in on the subject to a certain extent without losing out on detail. This I think will not be possible with the Nokia 9 PureView as it has to stitch images from different sensors. Lossless Zoom worked even in Video mode and videos on Nokia 9 PureView are recorded using the central camera which won't allow for the lossless zoom. That was a traditional approach relying on the advantages of the huge sensor. And yes those B&W sensors could limit it to some extent as well.

    But if Light had designed it to capture higher resolution images the processing would have been different but I still feel a natural image is much cleaner than the one which is stitched using the software. Nokia 9 PureView is taking a different approach and is focussed more on the current trends in mobile photography like the HDR and Bokeh. And I can say that Nothing else comes close to this in terms of hardware. Bokeh is still a hit or miss but when it hits it really nails it.

    I am not sure about the 2X lens of the 7 plus and 8 Sirocco but in theory, the image captured using the telephoto lens should look better than the digitally zoomed image captured on the Nokia 9 PureView. But this can only be confirmed if someone does a comparison. Afterall Nokia 9 PureView has the advantage of having more sensors and then combining all that data into one single image.
  • madbilly madbilly
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    Thanks, that's a really good explanation, especially your point about the fact that the 5 cameras don't all take images with the same settings, therefore the images can't be easily combined and reduced via an oversampling technique - the algorithm is clearly much more sophisticated than that!
    And on the video you're completely right, not opportunity for lossless zoom here (unless HMD have implemented oversampling for lower resolutions, which I think they have not!).
    I would very much like to see a comparison of the 9PV 2x digital zoom against the Sirocco and/or 7 plus. So far as I have seen the 9PV digital zoom is still inferior to the other top camera phones available.
    Cheers :)
  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
    ✭✭✭✭  /  edited August 6
    madbilly said:
    Thanks, that's a really good explanation, especially your point about the fact that the 5 cameras don't all take images with the same settings, therefore the images can't be easily combined and reduced via an oversampling technique - the algorithm is clearly much more sophisticated than that!
    And on the video you're completely right, not opportunity for lossless zoom here (unless HMD have implemented oversampling for lower resolutions, which I think they have not!).
    I would very much like to see a comparison of the 9PV 2x digital zoom against the Sirocco and/or 7 plus. So far as I have seen the 9PV digital zoom is still inferior to the other top camera phones available.
    Cheers :)
    Nokia 9 PureView isn't designed with zoom in mind and many flagships nowadays come with a dedicated telephoto lens so it is expected that the digitally zoomed images will lack details. Can't say the same about the RAW images of the Nokia 9 PureView. It might have the data to make images (shot using a little bit of zoom in RAW format) look better than the ones shot in auto mode after post processing.

    Let's see what they bring with the next gen PureView. I feel it will be a beast it its own unique way just like the Nokia 9 PureView. 😁
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