Camera: Do lower resolution modes use oversampling?

Hi all, I've been wondering recently about the lower resolution modes for the camera app and whether or not they use oversampling. Do any of you know this?

Camera: Do lower resolution modes use oversampling?

madbilly madbilly
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Hi all,
I've been wondering recently about the lower resolution modes for the camera app and whether or not they use oversampling. Do any of you know this? To me it seems such an obvious thing to implement that I think that these lower resolutions must use oversampling, but then there are lots of seemingly obvious things which HMD haven't implemented (or which they've implemented when unnecessary! Looking at you EIS in 1080p and 720p video modes on the Nokia 8! :neutral:) so I don't want to assume that oversampling is used.
Why would oversampling be good? In short, because it could help reduce noise in images and allow better image quality, even though they are not at the maximum possible resolution.
I tried to check this myself but didn't notice any significant difference between the modes on the Nokia 8.
If I could be sure that oversampling is used at lower resolutions then I would use a lower resolution setting, because I'm not printed a photo larger than 4x6" for years and the highest resolution screen I have is the one on my Nokia 8! I really don't think I need to take 13MP photos, but don't want to take lower res unless there's a benefit other than file size.
I would use 1080p video mode if it weren't for the stupid EIS which is activated, which is unnecessary on the Nokia 8 with its OIS.
Cheers :)

Comments

  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    I don't think our camera software has oversampling stuff baked in. If it was then HMD would have mentioned it everywhere. I mostly shoot in 4:3 full 12MP resolution and crop the image if needed. BTW I am more interested in know if the camera on Nokia 8 captures images from both sensors and combines them like on the Nokia 9 PureView OR are both sensors used for their respective purposes. I know it uses both when in Bokeh mode.
    The major updates will start coming in a few months and we will know what new features did HMD bring to the camera app. I hope they don't leave us, 2nd gen users, behind. :)
  • gaurang patkar gaurang patkar
    ✭✭  /  edited August 5
    Look at this 2 images. One is 13 MP from Nokia 8 and other is 0.9 MP.  According to what I know 0.9MP photo should have been antialised. But not the case here. Hence there is no oversampling
  • madbilly madbilly
    ✭✭✭✭  /  edited August 5
    Thanks for the comparison shot, I think that's a better choice of subject than what I was using. I agree, we can see the difference in quality in what is written in the notebook. I think you're probably right, there is no oversampling involved.
    In which case how do they take a lower resolution image? Do they just skip pixels?
    @Kartik Gada the 8 does use both cameras in normal and pro mode, it's how it achieves such good dynamic range (and why the images always look a little dark) - albeit not as good as the 9PV, obviously. I think that @user389, @mrbelter or @jdan confirmed this. In many ways the 8 was the predecessor to the 9PV in terms of camera tech.
    Cheers :)
  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    madbilly said:
    Thanks for the comparison shot, I think that's a better choice of subject than what I was using. I agree, we can see the difference in quality in what is written in the notebook. I think you're probably right, there is no oversampling involved.
    In which case how do they take a lower resolution image? Do they just skip pixels?
    @Kartik Gada the 8 does use both cameras in normal and pro mode, it's how it achieves such good dynamic range (and why the images always look a little dark) - albeit not as good as the 9PV, obviously. I think that @user389, @mrbelter or @jdan confirmed this. In many ways the 8 was the predecessor to the 9PV in terms of camera tech.
    Cheers :)
    Yes, Nokia 8 could be the unsung hero. Now after knowing it uses both cameras, it seems like a lite version of the Nokia 9 PureView. A hidden gem. :)
  • gaurang patkar gaurang patkar
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    madbilly said:
    Thanks for the comparison shot, I think that's a better choice of subject than what I was using. I agree, we can see the difference in quality in what is written in the notebook. I think you're probably right, there is no oversampling involved.
    In which case how do they take a lower resolution image? Do they just skip pixels?
    @Kartik Gada the 8 does use both cameras in normal and pro mode, it's how it achieves such good dynamic range (and why the images always look a little dark) - albeit not as good as the 9PV, obviously. I think that @user389, @mrbelter or @jdan confirmed this. In many ways the 8 was the predecessor to the 9PV in terms of camera tech.
    Cheers :)
    Madbilly very nice question. When capturing in low res mode a large sensor simulates as a small sensor by pixel binning wherein many pixel represent one pixel which may not capture much data but much light 😉. Here are some sets of samples from my NOKIA 8 for you to judge about whats happening here. 
  • gaurang patkar gaurang patkar
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  • madbilly madbilly
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    Thanks, that makes sense now. So I presume that pixel binning is easier for them to implement than oversampling? Pixel binning is part of the camera hardware and oversampling would be in software? In theory then, they could implement oversampling on the high resolution images to get lower resolution... I think. But they chose not to, which is a shame.
    I've probably misunderstood something!
    Cheers :)
  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    @madbilly here's an example. You must have seen the diagram of the lens in the Nokia 808 White paper. The circle is the sensor but the usable space is shown as a rectangle. I think while shooting in low resolution mode that rectangle is shrinked and doesn't touch the borders of the circle which would be done only when we are shooting in full resolution mode. 38MP for 4:3 and 34MP in 16:9 format. Something like this 👇🏻. I might be wrong. 

  • gaurang patkar gaurang patkar
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    Hey @madbilly ;
    I haven't read the full article published by Juha, but what I think is by what I read about oversampling is it gives you the topping of details which are obtained from high res photos into the high dynamic range and better colour details of low res photos. In a nutshell details are added in low res shot.
  • madbilly madbilly
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    Yes I think we're thinking about the same things now. I found this explanation, which I think I understand but it was difficult to follow!
    Cheers :)
  • gaurang patkar gaurang patkar
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    At this pace we might find all of us 3 leading the hmd's imaging division soon.
  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
    ✭✭✭✭  /  edited August 6
    At this pace we might find all of us 3 leading the hmd's imaging division soon.
    LOL let's join :D First thing I'll try to do is bring back the old imaging team :).
    But, I am also interested in the Feature Phone division.  ;)
  • madbilly madbilly
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    Haha! :D
    I think there's no need to hire us or the old team, just hire the person who makes OpenCamera! The more I look at that the more I realise how much expertise the developer has. They obviously love photography and all of the technical, computational side of it too.
    Cheers :)
  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    madbilly said:
    Haha! :D
    I think there's no need to hire us or the old team, just hire the person who makes OpenCamera! The more I look at that the more I realise how much expertise the developer has. They obviously love photography and all of the technical, computational side of it too.
    Cheers :)
    Yes, his app has many features but I don't find it user friendly. It is very difficult to navigate and get used to it. I'll install it once more and try it again. I still prefer the simplicity of the Pro Mode made by our Nokia. 😁
  • madbilly madbilly
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    I agree that the UI is nicer in the Nokia camera, but the maker of OpenCamera clearly knows what they're doing.
  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    madbilly said:
    I agree that the UI is nicer in the Nokia camera, but the maker of OpenCamera clearly knows what they're doing.
    I installed it yesterday and was scratching me head to find where is the pro mode then i found the Camera2api toggle in the cameras settings.

    It has some nice features like colour mode, scene mode, etc. Also, there are many types of grids which i don't know how to use but could be beneficial for many who know how to use them. I stick to Rule of Thirds. 😅

    HMD can definitely add some of these features in their camera app 😁
  • madbilly madbilly
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    If OpenCamera could access all the capabilities of the cameras in the Nokias, e.g. the monochrome camera in the Nokia 8, use both at the same time, etc, then all OpenCamera would really be missing is the Pro UI (and more efficient battery use!).
    Cheers :)
  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    madbilly said:
    If OpenCamera could access all the capabilities of the cameras in the Nokias, e.g. the monochrome camera in the Nokia 8, use both at the same time, etc, then all OpenCamera would really be missing is the Pro UI (and more efficient battery use!).
    Cheers :)
    Same for many other camera apps like gcam. If gcam could access the telephoto lens of the Nokia 7 plus. 😁
  • madbilly madbilly
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    Exactly. I really wish that the Android rules required that manufacturers publish their proprietary APIs. It's crazy that they have all these features and they don't let 3rd parties know how to use them, because if they did then we would see some real innovation in apps which use the hardware of these smartphones.
    Cheers :)
  • gaurang patkar gaurang patkar
    ✭✭  /  edited August 9
    Open Camera is one of the best camera software. It is not like hmd doesn't know about how to implement the features of open Camera, but they don't to keep camera app sophisticated. Generally changing one setting sometimes needs other settings to be changed too otherwise the photo may look disastrous. People with incomplete knowledge may blame company for this disastrous effect. So big companies don't allow fine tuning. Sometimes they may just want to keep things simple for users. On other hand cheap Chinese companies may allow such tuning in their products.
  • madbilly madbilly
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    Presumably the API for the additional cameras on the FIH-made HMD phones is similar, so if someone can work out how it works on one phone then maybe it could extended to work with all of them.
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