HMD bigger than Microsoft, but not bigger than Nokia

Hi all,I became curious about how well HMD were doing compared to how well the old Nokia smartphones business did - I am only considering number of devices sold as other measures might not be comparable (and also very subjective!).

HMD bigger than Microsoft, but not bigger than Nokia

madbilly madbilly
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Hi all,
I became curious about how well HMD were doing compared to how well the old Nokia smartphones business did - I am only considering number of devices sold as other measures might not be comparable (and also very subjective!). From this Nokiamob report https://nokiamob.net/2019/08/29/total-of-16-8-million-nokia-phones-shipped-in-q2-2019-counterpoint/ and the Lumia sales figures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Lumia#Sales it's clear that HMD are doing better than Microsoft did with the Lumia brand after Windows Phone 8.1 was dropped, but HMD still can't beat the sales of Windows Phone 8.1 Lumia phones.
What does this tell us? Well, superficially it tells me that there's more to selling smartphones than just putting a badge on a well-built but otherwise ordinary smartphone. It also suggests to me that there is value in being different, but to be different you still need an exceptional product. The Lumia series was excellent and it's obvious that's why it sold. It's not clear to me that people see the current Nokia smartphones as exceptional, or interesting, which may be why HMD can't sell as many beige-Android devices as Nokia and Microsoft could sell WP8.1 Lumias. I think that the only thing that HMD can claim they are exceptional at is deployment of security updates, and honestly that doesn't make me covet my phone in the same way I coveted a Lumia (or Nokia's previous smartphone models)!
Cheers :smiley:

Comments

  • singhnsk singhnsk
    ✭✭✭✭  /  edited September 11
    Why do you compare it to Microsoft? Why not to the real Nokia?
    After Balmer left, Microsoft didn't show much interest in selling phones and the eventual switch to their own brand did the final nails in the coffin. Nokia brand is very strong, couple it with Nokia tune and you get half of the sale done. The remaining is the convincing power of the salesman or the specs sheet. HMD isn't giving anything to either of those to make the sale complete.
    I can't even praise HMD for the deployment of security updates. Sure they did deliver all the updates and it is commendable, but this enormous number of updates and every time optimization of apps did leave a lot of downsides, one being that the system partition kept on increasing. At 17GB (when I did a reset of my 8.1), it was heavier than customized skins of others. And the updates were never strictly a security patch. They did play with something else, bringing more bugs, battery backup differences, and the infamous device stuck in download mode. Quality control has been a thing which I see nobody at HMD paying attention to.

    BTW, hey, I do like beige as a color. Considering it in several combinations for bathroom tiles xD 
  • madbilly madbilly
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    Hi @singhnsk you're right, beige does have its place, and its place is in the bathroom! :D
    I compare against Microsoft to show that HMD are doing better than Microsoft, which is surely the first step in H-M-D, isn't it? ;)
    Comparing the beige sentiment about "pure" Android and the fall of Lumia. Windows 10 Mobile on the Lumia 950s was the nail in the coffin. Why? Because, IIRC, there were no special Lumia apps on the Lumias, was there? In W10M the pro camera app was provided to all W10M devices, not only Lumias. I think the same is true for other WP8.1 Lumia-specific apps when they were refactored for W10M. Microsoft thought it would be unfair on their partners to offer exclusive features on their own devices running W10M, so it made them available to all. But what this achieved was that it killed Lumia and it didn't save W10M. Now see that Google actually decided to do the opposite when it changed from Nexus to Pixel, it introduced exclusive features on its own devices and they are doing well.
    So this is again where HMD's Android One strategy has a weakness. They are now on the outside, not in control of the user experience nor the OS. Pixels are like what WP8.1 Lumias were and those were a success. How successful were the other WP8.1 devices, can you even remember any?! :confused: 
    So, HMD have sold more Android devices than Microsoft sold W10M devices. The next step for them is to try and sell more Android devices than Microsoft sold Lumia devices in total, but to achieve this they just need to stay in business. After that it gets more difficult. They need to exceed the sales per quarter of Lumias for which the highest was achieved by Microsoft (not Nokia! But remember that Nokia was selling other smartphones too, not only Lumias) in Q4-2014, 10.5m units. HMD have achieved 4.8m in a quarter but given that their market share seems fairly static and the smartphone market is shrinking I think it's very unlikely that they will ever do better than Microsoft or Nokia ever did.
    Unless they change their strategy and start to offer something to differentiate them from their competition, which will only get harder if they stick with pure Android because when Project Mainline really gets used widely all manufacturers will be able to offer security updates as fast as Google can send them out.
    Cheers :)
  • BootloaderUnlockWhen BootloaderUnlockWhen
    ✭✭✭  /  edited September 12
    Also I'm curious why the focus on the US market. Is it really necessary for their success, or are they doing it because Google is based in the US? (similar to the Windows Phone situation)

    edit: my first comment is still awaiting approval for some reason
  • madbilly madbilly
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    Hi @MichaelsoftSirFaceFone it's because we're discussing something so similar to your name! :D
    I think there's a general perception that - for smartphones, certainly ever since the iPhone - if a brand isn't big in the USA then it's not considered important and this probably affects the opinions of people around the whole world. So a big presence in the USA can help with presence elsewhere.
    I think you're probably right about it being similar to WP as well, but probably for slightly different reasons. I feel like the majority of the press which say how wonderful "pure Android" is are based in the USA, so HMD's main marketing message probably sounds good to more people there than elsewhere.
    These are obviously my opinions and from my limited experience so I'm probably wrong in many ways! :D
    Cheers :)
  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    madbilly said:
    Hi @singhnsk you're right, beige does have its place, and its place is in the bathroom! :D
    I compare against Microsoft to show that HMD are doing better than Microsoft, which is surely the first step in H-M-D, isn't it? ;)
    Comparing the beige sentiment about "pure" Android and the fall of Lumia. Windows 10 Mobile on the Lumia 950s was the nail in the coffin. Why? Because, IIRC, there were no special Lumia apps on the Lumias, was there? In W10M the pro camera app was provided to all W10M devices, not only Lumias. I think the same is true for other WP8.1 Lumia-specific apps when they were refactored for W10M. Microsoft thought it would be unfair on their partners to offer exclusive features on their own devices running W10M, so it made them available to all. But what this achieved was that it killed Lumia and it didn't save W10M. Now see that Google actually decided to do the opposite when it changed from Nexus to Pixel, it introduced exclusive features on its own devices and they are doing well.
    So this is again where HMD's Android One strategy has a weakness. They are now on the outside, not in control of the user experience nor the OS. Pixels are like what WP8.1 Lumias were and those were a success. How successful were the other WP8.1 devices, can you even remember any?! :confused: 
    So, HMD have sold more Android devices than Microsoft sold W10M devices. The next step for them is to try and sell more Android devices than Microsoft sold Lumia devices in total, but to achieve this they just need to stay in business. After that it gets more difficult. They need to exceed the sales per quarter of Lumias for which the highest was achieved by Microsoft (not Nokia! But remember that Nokia was selling other smartphones too, not only Lumias) in Q4-2014, 10.5m units. HMD have achieved 4.8m in a quarter but given that their market share seems fairly static and the smartphone market is shrinking I think it's very unlikely that they will ever do better than Microsoft or Nokia ever did.
    Unless they change their strategy and start to offer something to differentiate them from their competition, which will only get harder if they stick with pure Android because when Project Mainline really gets used widely all manufacturers will be able to offer security updates as fast as Google can send them out.
    Cheers :)
    After Microsoft purchased Nokia, the apps made by Nokia for their Lumias were renamed to Lumia. For eg: Nokia Camera was renamed to Lumia Camera, Nokia Refocus was renamed to Lumia Refocus, Nokia Cinemagraph was renamed to Lumia Cinemagraph and so on. Nokia just made their own apps to go with their Lumias. Microsoft did right by making all those apps as the inbuilt apps with W10M as those were much better than Microsoft's own apps. But these didn't hurt the sale of Lumias. In fact, after W10M only a couple of manufacturers made devices running on that OS. HP Elite X3 was the last device I guess.

    HTC showed interest in WP8 but Nokia was too strong in that already small space. Microsoft under Ballmer purchased Nokia thinking they will fight Android with their new W10M but he was replaced by Nadella and we all know what happened next. W10M was killed. Yes, it still receives security updates but nothing big that improves the OS and this is its last year too. Lumia was killed by Microsoft themselves and not due to the less number of exclusive apps. Microsoft just stopped pushing W10M. 

    I feel W10M had a chance if it was pushed. In many countries, WP had achieved double-digit market share becoming the 2nd major OS after Android. Yes, most devices sold were a low end but they helped them achieve a lot.

    Coming to Android and Google devices, pixels are flagships and they come with a great camera which google doesn't want to share even with those manufacturers who support them in pushing their "beige" android one (yes, I too always thought that vanilla is tasty and why to call this plain thing as Vanilla). But this won't hurt manufacturers in the android world as most users are aware of gcam ports. Yes, there might be many such other features which can't be ported but most OEM's just don't care about "Google's version of Android" and ship their own "Cocktail" version with mixed tastes

    For HMD to achieve more sales than all Lumias combined, they need a good "smart these days" camera, a UI that can differentiate them from the rest, start making some WOW phones at the price point of the recently launched 6.2 and 7.2. By WOW, I mean phones with big batteries, big display, big cameras that make people say yes this is a phone that I need. Their new design is amazing and I think if pushed well in the offline the devices will sell well. Their current main targets seem to be the US and European countries which again is a good thing for them as the phones will go on sale in these countries early and they also won't face much competition from the Chinese brands like the face in Asian markets.
  • user1520881638007 user1520881638007
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    @madbilly
    But W10M has now going under changes with some of the independent developers named Gustave and this team where there are working for the WoA(Windows on ARM) project and now there are 90% success by porting most of the OS,drivers and few fixes of Windows 10 May 2019 update to Lumia 950,950XL and Acer Jade devices,So for Windows Fans might be delighted for the new experience in upcoming days

    regarding HMD,it's true that they are not bigger than Nokia symbian and Microsoft since it's 2 years where there are still been fighting for the best in case of features and other for what users are waiting.even Android One strategies also need to be changed so that promise of security and new OS experience along with some user recommended features need to be taken consideration and also here prices also a noting point for indian consumers,Known that when users buy at starting prices and then after less than 6 months when price drops, making the users feel worse for the difference happening in market

    So what HMD need to do changes are said above by the community users so at least I hope this topic need to be considered and hope in upcoming days,not only in software but in other fields also should be stand in first place
  • madbilly madbilly
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    If you look at the sales figures it's clear that W10M was a flop before MS officially killed it at the end of 2017 because the launch of the 950s at the end of 2015 didn't help revive sales of Lumias. I think almost as many devices were released with W10M as WP8/8/1, if you believe Wikipedia, so I don't that was a major reason. I think that the last W10M was actually the Wileyfox Pro in 2018! WP8/8.1 was more successful because it was actually a better mobile OS than W10M. If they'd made W10M lighter and more efficient then it could have continued to be popular on cheaper phones.
    Anyway I didn't really want to discuss how MS mishandled the Lumia and Nokia brands and ended up killing the business and W10M, that has been discussed to death on other forums.
    What I wanted to highlight is that:
    1. HMD are selling more Android smartphones than Microsoft managed to sell W10M smartphones
    2. In 2-3 years, if their market share does not fall significantly, they will have sold more smartphones than Microsoft sold in total
    3. I think it's highly unlikely, IMO, they will ever get a larger market share than Microsoft (and certainly not Nokia) without a change in strategy especially on the OS.
    I actually don't think most users are aware of GCam ports because most users don't go online to look for these things, they just use the camera app which is installed. Still there are other features/apps which are unique to Pixels, although they're not as impressive as Nokias Lumia exclusive apps. Here's to cocktails!
    I say yes to bigger batteries and cameras but no to bigger screens. The designs are fine, nice, although to me they don't scream Nordic, they're probably not going to appear in Illums Bolighus for example ;)
    There's plenty of competition from Chinese brands in Europe, but I don't know about the USA. Maybe the market is more offline in the USA and Europe which suits HMD better as they can avoid the price wars that you seem to have in India, although I have to say it's unreasonable to think that the price of something won't reduce over its lifetime, this is just the nature of the current markets and HMD have to compete in these markets so need to reduce their prices over time.
    Hi @user1520881638007 yes the ports of WoA to the 950s are very interesting, but they're only really going to of interest to hobbyists. Only if they manage to get all hardware features working, the camera app as good as on W10M and decent battery life will that project be more widely accepted. I still think it's great though! :smiley:
    Cheers :)
  • singhnsk singhnsk
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    @madbilly I do not consider the exclusive apps as a reason, because if that were one, then WP/WM would be still alive with the difference that somebody else (with own apps and exclusive experiences) would be selling more WP/W10Ms than Microsoft. But what we are seeing is that the OS died and it is clear that even Microsoft bringing all those awesome apps to everybody failed to bring buyer attention towards Windows on phones.
    Google has been promoting its services with Pixels, which Microsoft definitely didn't. The latest leaked advert for the Pixel 4 mentions multiple times how a smartphone from a company which built Maps, Chrome, Gmail, and others would be awesome too. They are targeting all the happy users of those apps to try and use the latest Pixel. Microsoft doesn't have such a lucrative and widely used portfolio of consumer apps and services as does Google.
    Yes, Lumia with Nokia was indeed better and most sold. That was more because it was the game of survival of one company (Nokia). Nokia was trying to deliver as much as they possibly could. It was them working day in and night to get things moving. Other than marketing the phones, we saw Nokia doing developer events and running bonus programs to convince developers into bringing apps to Lumias. Nokia's effort was more than Microsoft's who owned Windows and had more reasons to invest in bringing developer interest in the platform. It was Nokia which convinced/partnered Rovio into bringing Angry Birds (the most loved game then) to Windows Phone; I am sure this convincing is not without money. Microsoft never tried even to match the energy and effort that Nokia did into that. That also convinces me that had Nokia switched to Meego; they would have managed to get that OS somewhat successful too. Pity that they were so short of cash supply to make the dedicated and constant investment into developing the Operating System. And today, I do not see HMD trying even 1% to match the level of energy and push that Elop did in making his portfolio more appealing. Lumias were not just designed well, they were built well, they were marketed well, they were supported well. Except for the app gap, I barely saw people complaining much about their Lumias, at least not to the level that water damage starts becoming the go-to excuse of the company. Well, HMD will continue to ignore the goodness of Lumia era because H-M-D 🤤
    Whatever WP achieved was all thanks to this one brand, else it was ignored by all and continued to be. HP and Samsung's Windows Phones were merely Microsoft luring them into making a few phones based on their strong partnerships for PCs and other products. Microsoft surely had the convincing power to convince Sam and HTC to make those few WP8.x phones. The other babies who arrived over time were just trying to encash the opportunity of the growing demand for Windows on phones, or else they were sponsored in some way to bring a Windows Phone. And later they were those trying to bring something to the small but serious market of buyers looking for a Windows device.
    Microsoft selling Lumia on its name is same as HMD selling Android One on its name - both won't sell itself unless a substantial investment is made into giving buyers a reason to try a phone from a company which was never seen before. Microsoft decided to sell the phones with its own unfamiliar brand name, whereas HMD uses the same common, known, powerful, iconic Nokia brand. In this case, I do not find them on a level field to be fit for comparison of sales. Pixel's current service and support policy are unmatched. You don't need an invoice to get support and RMAs processed very easily, and you also do not need to be in the same country where it was bought (except some cases). That's them trying to build a brand name in the hardware market and delivering what they have overcharged for, just like Apple. And well, Pixels have a good name, but they didn't sell so well too, Google itself admitted that earler.

    Also, yes, WM10 was something which was built on none of the positive points of Windows Phone. It was a messed up, laggy, buggy, and just not ready for being released to consumers. Then once again a minimal user base (due to old devices not getting W10M) left app developers with no reasons to develop apps for the W10M. Also, it is still pointless to build two operating systems handling entirely different platforms over the same base/kernel. There is always a significant difference between the use cases, resource consumption, and size of a smartphone and a PC, which make me have a personal opinion that both should not be running the same thing, at least not yet.

    Meanwhile, Mr. @Conqueror did you press the disagree because beige is not a nice color for the bathroom? xD I do not see anything else that you can strongly disagree with 🤠 I'll appreciate if you disagree with words next time, or you can kindly help me by ignoring my posts. I do yours.
  • madbilly madbilly
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    Hi @singhnsk, don't name and shame people for disagreeing when that info is supposed to be hidden now ;)
    I'll correct one of your points: The highest Lumias sold per quarter was when MS was owner - Q42014. After that Nadella came a long and decided he wasn't interested.
    Maybe HMD are happy selling ~20m smartphones per year and they won't do anything to risk losing this, even if this means they won't improve.
    They don't read any of this anyway so we can only wait and see! :D
  • singhnsk singhnsk
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    @madbilly Well, I can't help it because HMD didn't hide it properly 🙄🤷‍♂️. I did warn them months ago about that 😅

    Anyways, we cannot ignore the fact that most of the devices in circulation during Q4 2014 were still carrying the Nokia brand. The cheaper babies brought in by Microsoft were not immediately available globally, plus they were getting the attention with Nokia banners, salespersons, other phones and also with the established Lumia brand. If you have stats about which models were sold in what numbers during late 2014 and early 2015, then we can have some conclusion on whether Nokia brand was a big selling factor or not. I'd say that it was and the sales chart for a few quarters showed the impact that Nokia left on the Lumia brand as well as the other models which were sold along with those with Microsoft's label. At least in markets like India, the brand name couldn't play a smaller role.
    HMD is surely going to have a flat 2019 when I look at what they have launched and pushed during the year. The new 6 and 7 may bring them some market share in EU/US if they market well. I don't see them going too well in Asia and i'll hope they spend less on promoting these models here. Afterall, the cost of all those promotions and advertising is eventually put on to the customer.
  • Viccky Viccky
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    Unless they change their strategy and start to offer something to differentiate them from their competition, which will only get harder if they stick with pure Android because when Project Mainline really gets used widely all manufacturers will be able to offer security updates as fast as Google can send them out.
    Cheers :)
    Hi @madbilly Well what do you think about Nokia X platform? Can X platform, if revived, differentiate HMD's phones? 🤔

    I used my friend's X2 and liked that more than current Nokia and other Android phones.
  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    Viccky said:
    Unless they change their strategy and start to offer something to differentiate them from their competition, which will only get harder if they stick with pure Android because when Project Mainline really gets used widely all manufacturers will be able to offer security updates as fast as Google can send them out.
    Cheers :)
    Hi @madbilly Well what do you think about Nokia X platform? Can X platform, if revived, differentiate HMD's phones? 🤔

    I used my friend's X2 and liked that more than current Nokia and other Android phones.
    X platform was a mix of WP and Asha. I don't think MS will allow them to use that Tile based UI now. They can stay stock but instead of the Google Now app on the left screen, we can have that Fastlane :)
  • Viccky Viccky
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    Viccky said:
    Unless they change their strategy and start to offer something to differentiate them from their competition, which will only get harder if they stick with pure Android because when Project Mainline really gets used widely all manufacturers will be able to offer security updates as fast as Google can send them out.
    Cheers :)
    Hi @madbilly Well what do you think about Nokia X platform? Can X platform, if revived, differentiate HMD's phones? 🤔

    I used my friend's X2 and liked that more than current Nokia and other Android phones.
    X platform was a mix of WP and Asha. I don't think MS will allow them to use that Tile based UI now. They can stay stock but instead of the Google Now app on the left screen, we can have that Fastlane :)
    Even having the Asha UI will be a better option than having a bare android. :-)
  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    Viccky said:
    Viccky said:
    Unless they change their strategy and start to offer something to differentiate them from their competition, which will only get harder if they stick with pure Android because when Project Mainline really gets used widely all manufacturers will be able to offer security updates as fast as Google can send them out.
    Cheers :)
    Hi @madbilly Well what do you think about Nokia X platform? Can X platform, if revived, differentiate HMD's phones? 🤔

    I used my friend's X2 and liked that more than current Nokia and other Android phones.
    X platform was a mix of WP and Asha. I don't think MS will allow them to use that Tile based UI now. They can stay stock but instead of the Google Now app on the left screen, we can have that Fastlane :)
    Even having the Asha UI will be a better option than having a bare android. :-)
    It will automatically look like asha UI with main screen and fast lane on the left side 😁
  • singhnsk singhnsk
    ✭✭✭✭  /  edited September 17
    They can simply collect the goodness of everything and make a new blue Nokia flavor. These can and could is all when HMD shows willingness. They currently seem to see nothing but the fact that there are some users who demand clean Android like Android One. They ignored the fact that users also appreciate clean, simple and more powerful Android as seen on OxygenOS, Lineage, OneUI; etc. It seems somebody convinced them to their max that any kind of customization makes it slow, well, that isn't hard if your top officials themselves don't know much about Android.

    @Kartik Gada MS might have a copyright against the kind of tile design used by Windows/Windows Phones, but it cannot copyright all the rectangular boxes. Because else all Android phones violate somebody's copyright by having round icons. If HMD wants, it can easily build a new design which looks like the Nokia X. I didn't like the X's tile design, but something is better than nothing. HMD can start off from a corner and build its journey towards an OS the way users want it. I did like the Meego inspired 3-layer homescreen navigation used in Asha Touch and Asha Software Platform. They can surely do a lot of innovative things, especially now that full-screen and gesture based navigation is becoming mainstream.
  • madbilly madbilly
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    Yes you're right, those phones had Nokia written on them so actually we should consider them to be Nokia Lumias, not Microsoft Lumias. Bearing this in mind I think we can easily say that HMD have sold more Nokia branded Android phones than Microsoft sold Microsoft branded Lumias. So, HMD are still lagging behind Nokia with no significant way to differentiate themselves.
    Hi @Viccky yes what I have suggested elsewhere a few times is for HMD to make the UI more like the X platform. However, HMD should not remove all the Google Play Services stuff and replace it with their own stuff like the X platform had (and that Amazon Kindle still does have), they should stick with Google (for now, at least... let's see what Huawei do and if it reopens the door to non-Google Android).
    I also don't think they should replicate the WP tile-based UI (even though I thought it was great) but they can easily make the home screen more widget friendly than stock Android is.
    I'm going to plug my own work here and say that I already brainstormed this with @Manus several months ago: https://community.phones.nokia.com/discussion/44762/how-to-get-that-nokia-feeling-design-and-ux/p1
    Maybe all this would be too much to do in one go, but this is a perfect example of how HMD could (should!) use the beta labs programme to try out new ideas with enthusiasts before rolling it out into the standard builds.
    Cheers :)
  • Thanuj Thanuj
    ✭✭✭  /  edited September 17
    I personally think Nokia's trying to capture the Budget market segment in the US. We all know that the US is dominated by Apple followed by Samsung and to an extent LG. But most of these OEM's release their Flagships there rather than the budget lineup.
    They focused on India first, Now they are seemingly targeting the US and European markets which I feel like is a good strategy.

    On Software side, WM was smooth as iOS. My dad's Lumia has just 512 MB of RAM yet the phone manages to keep its animations smooth. Yes, the low RAM was trouble but most of the times it was just a screen saying resuming for just 2 seconds and you are back in. My Nokia 6.1+ on the other hand has 4Gigs of RAM yet still manages to lose apps in the memory and I've noticed stutters on ui animations when nothing was open in the background. Either Nokia needs slightly better optimization(They have good optimization but can be better) or Just tweak Software like OnePlus has done to OOS, Simple but fast animations, Enough customization and stock like feeling. OnePlus is not perfect either(Aggresive battery saving techniques and all).

    I don't really understand the hype of Stock Android. Yes, It's clean, It's minimal... I might even say it a bit too much minimal.

    Next up, Security updates -  I've got an unpopular opinion, I don't care about monthly software security updates. Yes, I need my phone to be secure but these security update every month don't seem to patch something critical everytime do they? Android in it's current state is pretty secure. I'd be happy If i get security patches every 2 months with proper testing and optimization rather than keep tweaking with the system. The Chinese software on the Nokia phones are feature rich(Some are gimmicks but generally speaking some of them are great features) You have Gaming mode(Speaking with how popular mobile gaming is in India right now), AI Smart boost(Gimmick but cool sounding :lol:). They even have this very simple but very very helpful network indicators and speed meters in the status bar(Indicators are those small arrows attached to the network icons that indicate when data is being downloaded or uploaded)... They still have the stock feeling of AOSP with all these features.




  • madbilly madbilly
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    I think you're right about their strategy and it's probably wise not to try and take on Apple and Samsung... yet. But they need to get there in steps and at the moment I think we're still on the first step, maybe the second but it's only a very small one.
    Android is slow and a resource hog. That's the price for running all the apps through the Java virtual machine (okay, better now than it was but still...). WP ran things much more natively and therefore had less overheads so needed less resources and ran more smoothly. After recently getting my Lumia 925 working again I was astounded by how smooth the UI is compared to my Nokia 8.
    You're not alone with your feelings about security updates. We still get security updates which introduce new bugs without fixing existing ones. I will repeat what I have said before about my order of priorities:
    1. Stability – fix bugs and broken features and don’t give me new updates which break things!
    2. Security
    3. New features, e.g. bringing the camera app up to date with new features from new phones
    4. OS version updates.
    I'd be happy with less frequent security updates if they could fix bugs and introduce new features at the same time.
    Cheers :)
  • singhnsk singhnsk
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    And I'd be happy with something like:

    OS: Nokia MeeUI 1.1
    Build: 104
    I won't care about what Android version is used underneath or what Google patch is pushed as long as things work absolutely well. I will care only about the OS version and the build xD
  • Thanuj Thanuj
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    madbilly said:

    You're not alone with your feelings about security updates. We still get security updates which introduce new bugs without fixing existing ones. I will repeat what I have said before about my order of priorities:
    1. Stability – fix bugs and broken features and don’t give me new updates which break things!
    2. Security
    3. New features, e.g. bringing the camera app up to date with new features from new phones
    4. OS version updates.
    I'd be happy with less frequent security updates if they could fix bugs and introduce new features at the same time.
    Cheers :)
    Exactly my thoughts. Where's the screen temperature adjustment from the Newer Nokia phones? What about the Night Mode, Again from the newer phones? I mean, These older devices are as capable as the ones that are currently released by Nokia, Why reduce the feature parity?

  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
    ✭✭✭✭  /  edited September 18
    I personally think Nokia's trying to capture the Budget market segment in the US. We all know that the US is dominated by Apple followed by Samsung and to an extent LG. But most of these OEM's release their Flagships there rather than the budget lineup.
    They focused on India first, Now they are seemingly targeting the US and European markets which I feel like is a good strategy. 
    LG does launch some budget and mid-range smartphones in the US and so does Motorola. But I feel the US would be easiest to crack with the stock android and regular update promise. Most US based tech channels have appreciated the budget Nokia smartphones be it the Nokia 7.1 or the recently announced Nokia 6.2 and Nokia 7.2. They also don't have competition from the Chinese brands in the US so, Nokia phones can still sell well due to their premium design and good enough specs for a mid-range phone. And now that they are focussing on carrier partnership it might just help them in a more positive way. Yes, targetting European and the US markets is a better decision and we can already see this happen with new devices being made available in these markets first :)

    On Software side, WM was smooth as iOS. My dad's Lumia has just 512 MB of RAM yet the phone manages to keep its animations smooth. Yes, the low RAM was trouble but most of the times it was just a screen saying resuming for just 2 seconds and you are back in. My Nokia 6.1+ on the other hand has 4Gigs of RAM yet still manages to lose apps in the memory and I've noticed stutters on ui animations when nothing was open in the background. Either Nokia needs slightly better optimization(They have good optimization but can be better) or Just tweak Software like OnePlus has done to OOS, Simple but fast animations, Enough customization and stock like feeling. OnePlus is not perfect either(Aggresive battery saving techniques and all).
    Yup, WP runs super smooth. There was a delay in starting apps but once you are in the apps just worked well and android just cannot match it I think. I am not into the technical stuff so don't know why this must be happening but it must have to do something with how both the operating systems are built and how differently they work. Also, WP had more control over the HW that a manufacturer could use and there were restrictions but overall it is still a lot smoother than any Android. If we go by the stats of Don't Kill My app, Nokia now has a better optimisation and I would consider them as average in terms of keeping apps in the memory. Honestly, most average consumers don't even know much about this and they don't care. Huawei, Samsung, Oneplus and Xiaomi have the worst but they are the brand which sell the most phones in the market and this proves the point the most consumers do not know about this stuff. Only heavy users will notice these issues. :)

    I don't really understand the hype of Stock Android. Yes, It's clean, It's minimal... I might even say it a bit too much minimal. 

    Next up, Security updates -  I've got an unpopular opinion, I don't care about monthly software security updates. Yes, I need my phone to be secure but these security update every month don't seem to patch something critical everytime do they? Android in it's current state is pretty secure. I'd be happy If i get security patches every 2 months with proper testing and optimization rather than keep tweaking with the system. The Chinese software on the Nokia phones are feature rich(Some are gimmicks but generally speaking some of them are great features) You have Gaming mode(Speaking with how popular mobile gaming is in India right now), AI Smart boost(Gimmick but cool sounding :lol:). They even have this very simple but very very helpful network indicators and speed meters in the status bar(Indicators are those small arrows attached to the network icons that indicate when data is being downloaded or uploaded)... They still have the stock feeling of AOSP with all these features. 
    Most of the marketing for Android One is coming from the US and YouTube channels from other countries just follow the trend. I haven't seen an Indian YouTuber using a Pixel as his primary device but have seen them always say positive about Android One and how good itt is to use stock android over a custom UI of some other brand. And these are the people who use either iOS or Galaxies. So, this false marketing is mostly done by YouTubers who just follow the trend IMO.

    Coming to security patches, I am with you. I don't want security patches every month. Just give quarterly updates and I am fine. But update your camera, fix bugs in the time you have instead of releasing update after update which just patches some security bug. I don't understand how big is the risk that they have to patch it every month and they keep finding so many risks every month. Yes, major security threats need to be addressed and they can just patch them when such need arises. But, why waste so much of time every month in providing just a 50-100mb security patch about which the average user doesn't even know what it does.

    The features in the Chinese ROM are available for rooted Nokia smartphones. Nokia Extensions magisk module (created [email protected]) can be installed along with a companion app (NEX) and you can enjoy all the China-exclusive features such as see in the "long screenshot" below. But all this requires a way to unlock the bootloader of our devices and HMD isn't ready to do it.

    **Using this on my Nokia 7 Plus


  • singhnsk singhnsk
    ✭✭✭✭  /  edited September 18
    madbilly said:

    You're not alone with your feelings about security updates. We still get security updates which introduce new bugs without fixing existing ones. I will repeat what I have said before about my order of priorities:
    1. Stability – fix bugs and broken features and don’t give me new updates which break things!
    2. Security
    3. New features, e.g. bringing the camera app up to date with new features from new phones
    4. OS version updates.
    I'd be happy with less frequent security updates if they could fix bugs and introduce new features at the same time.
    Cheers :)
    Exactly my thoughts. Where's the screen temperature adjustment from the Newer Nokia phones? What about the Night Mode, Again from the newer phones? I mean, These older devices are as capable as the ones that are currently released by Nokia, Why reduce the feature parity?


    Funny that my Nokia 2.2 can pause a video while recording but my Nokia 8.1 cannot. That's such a great use of the processing power of the device. HMD disowning older phones is a pain for real. The features which they can easily add are ignored and yet the focus is still maintained on up to date. No it isn't up to date if features from their other phones can't be provided.
    Camera is probably the only HMD thing into the phones and they fail to match the experience. I look at Lumia and it was way better. Even baby of phones and super old got similar app updates and most functionality unless limited by hardware. But still, HMD, HMD, HMD 😂
  • Thanuj Thanuj
    ✭✭✭  / 



    Hello fellow root user :smirk:
  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
    ✭✭✭✭  / 
    Hello fellow root user :smirk:
    Hello 😜😅
  • Muser Muser
    ✭✭✭  / 
    Kartik Gada said:
    They can stay stock but instead of the Google Now app on the left screen, we can have that Fastlane :)
    Fastlane was sooo good, I can't believe no one has copied it yet. I'm sure Google provides an incentive for Android One but I don't understand why HMD doesn't experiment more with Google Play apps. Why not create a new launcher, music player, etc and simply make those apps available via Google Play for power users/fans? In the Lumia days Nokia would do this all the time.

    Now that Pixel has more affordable options and other companies have OZO like functionality I'm not sure what unique selling point Nokia devices have anymore. There's nothing for fans and no one can provide a better stock Android experience than Google.
  • madbilly madbilly
    ✭✭✭✭  / 
    The only USPs left are that they ship #beigeAndroid (TM) on more models than any other brand and their "Nordic design"...designed in Britain, by Brits and made in China :D
  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
    ✭✭✭✭  / 
    Muser said:
    Kartik Gada said:
    They can stay stock but instead of the Google Now app on the left screen, we can have that Fastlane :)
    Fastlane was sooo good, I can't believe no one has copied it yet. I'm sure Google provides an incentive for Android One but I don't understand why HMD doesn't experiment more with Google Play apps. Why not create a new launcher, music player, etc and simply make those apps available via Google Play for power users/fans? In the Lumia days Nokia would do this all the time.

    Now that Pixel has more affordable options and other companies have OZO like functionality I'm not sure what unique selling point Nokia devices have anymore. There's nothing for fans and no one can provide a better stock Android experience than Google.
    I have been asking for same since start. They need something of their own to differentiate themselves. Just relying on security patches and updates won't help them differentiate from others. I want them to experiement and try something different. 😊
  • Evindzer Evindzer
    ✭✭✭  / 
    I don't like Android One, but my Sirocco works great, so I'm pleased.  😊 
    I changed the the appearance of the screen as much as I could (Nova, icon pack, wall...) and now it is aesthetically fine for me – and everything works well.
    Enough for me.  😋
  • singhnsk singhnsk
    ✭✭✭✭  / 
    Evindzer said:
    I don't like Android One, but my Sirocco works great, so I'm pleased.  😊 
    I changed the the appearance of the screen as much as I could (Nova, icon pack, wall...) and now it is aesthetically fine for me – and everything works well.
    Enough for me.  😋

    Wait for Android 10. Then you either keep stock launcher or lose access to the Android 10 gestures. If you use stock launcher, you're stuck with that forced google box, no icon packs, and zero customization in the launcher.
    And if you decide to change launcher and lose gestures, Android 10 is just Android 9 with a little bit more control at notifications and permissions 😑 This is boring google droid now. You won't even figure out what's new after the number changes from 9 to 10 😎
  • I'm curious how using androidone on their entire smartphone portfolio actually affect sales. According to the latest FIH report, smartphone are becoming (or is already) commoditized and major differentiation will be in the software side of things. They also state HMD isn't doing so great selling their phones. Whether that is because of their use of pure Android or a botched strategy I have no idea. I suspect lackluster marketing could be a major reason. The amount of Samsung, Oppo and Vivo ads are staggering, meanwhile I have yet to see a single new Nokia ad in the wild. One thing's for sure though, they can't continue whatever current strategy they're using and capitalizing on nostalgia for long as their sales are already slowing down or stagnating. especially in Europe.

    Plus I really hope they allow bootloader unlocking, maybe then they'd have a sizeable developer community like OnePlus or Xiaomi...
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