7.2 - 48MP on an SD 660?

matthewkuhl

How is this achieved when the SnapDragon 660 supports 25MP single/16MP dual cameras?

chiraggohil

matthewkuhl said:

How is this achieved when the SnapDragon 660 supports 25MP single/16MP dual cameras?

its a pixle binning technology

matthewkuhl

Is there a slightly more technical answer or any documentation on the technology? That is akin to an answer to a question by a parent who doesn't know the answer to a question asked by their child.

singhnsk

Same question here. And @Kartik Gada asked me the same a while ago too. I planned to ask @madbilly, but I have found this thread earlier than that. I will push it to the questions thread where Miika Mahonen is supposed to answer a few questions. Not sure if this will suit a design guy though.

If anybody finds more details, please share it in this thread.

Edit: Asked it here. Likes appreciated (since it was said that questions with more likes will be more likely to be answered).

madbilly

I think other manufacturers have done this before, a 48MP camera with a 660 SoC (Xiaomi?) and I think that they tell the camera to run in pixel-binning mode which means it outputs 12MP photos which the ISP can handle.

But this theory is not quite right if the 7.2 can take RAW images - can it? If so then I don't know how it works, but probably the same way other manufacturers got it to work in the past two years.

Cheers

Kartik Gada

madbilly said:

I think other manufacturers have done this before, a 48MP camera with a 660 SoC (Xiaomi?) and I think that they tell the camera to run in pixel-binning mode which means it outputs 12MP photos which the ISP can handle.

But this theory is not quite right if the 7.2 can take RAW images - can it? If so then I don't know how it works, but probably the same way other manufacturers got it to work in the past two years.

Cheers

Even if the image produced is of 12MP in resolution the actual sensor itself is 48MP and the phone also has an option to output 48MP images. I am wondering how is this actually working. Is there any way to check if these sesnors are true 48MP sensors and not just some fake marketing scam by Samsung? 😅

singhnsk

Kartik Gada said:

madbilly said:

I think other manufacturers have done this before, a 48MP camera with a 660 SoC (Xiaomi?) and I think that they tell the camera to run in pixel-binning mode which means it outputs 12MP photos which the ISP can handle.

But this theory is not quite right if the 7.2 can take RAW images - can it? If so then I don't know how it works, but probably the same way other manufacturers got it to work in the past two years.

Cheers

Even if the image produced is of 12MP in resolution the actual sensor itself is 48MP and the phone also has an option to output 48MP images. I am wondering how is this actually working. Is there any way to check if these sesnors are true 48MP sensors and not just some fake marketing scam by Samsung? 😅

Looks like a scam to me 😅. Were you able to figure out the exact sensor model used? Might find some info from the specifications.

matthewkuhl

Found this article for people like me who are unfamiliar with the process
https://www.androidauthority.com/what-is-pixel-binning-966179/

Kartik Gada

singhnsk said:

Kartik Gada said:

madbilly said:

I think other manufacturers have done this before, a 48MP camera with a 660 SoC (Xiaomi?) and I think that they tell the camera to run in pixel-binning mode which means it outputs 12MP photos which the ISP can handle.

But this theory is not quite right if the 7.2 can take RAW images - can it? If so then I don't know how it works, but probably the same way other manufacturers got it to work in the past two years.

Cheers

Even if the image produced is of 12MP in resolution the actual sensor itself is 48MP and the phone also has an option to output 48MP images. I am wondering how is this actually working. Is there any way to check if these sesnors are true 48MP sensors and not just some fake marketing scam by Samsung? 😅

Looks like a scam to me 😅. Were you able to figure out the exact sensor model used? Might find some info from the specifications.

Couldn't. 😅 But i guess it is the Samsung one because the Sony IMX586 can't be used on a phone with SD660. 

hikari calyx

The predecessor of Nokia 7.2 is actually Nokia X71.
I'm not surprised at all if they choose IMX586 as main sensor.

Kartik Gada

hikari calyx said:

The predecessor of Nokia 7.2 is actually Nokia X71.
I'm not surprised at all if they choose IMX586 as main sensor.

How can it be the IMX586? It's technically not possible at all.
AFAIK even the Nokia X71 had Samsung GM1 sensor.

madbilly

Hi @Kartik Gada, why isn't it possible? I think @hikari calyx makes a good point - the hardware of both phones is almost identical!

Cheers

Kartik Gada

madbilly said:

Hi @Kartik Gada, why isn't it possible? I think @hikari calyx makes a good point - the hardware of both phones is almost identical!

Cheers

Yes, both have exact same hardware and both have a 48MP main sensor. And this brings us to the question of this thread. How 48MP on an SD660? 😅

Fahad

madbilly said:

I think other manufacturers have done this before, a 48MP camera with a 660 SoC (Xiaomi?) and I think that they tell the camera to run in pixel-binning mode which means it outputs 12MP photos which the ISP can handle.

But this theory is not quite right if the 7.2 can take RAW images - can it? If so then I don't know how it works, but probably the same way other manufacturers got it to work in the past two years.

Cheers

I believe it's more of a software limitation too. The Nokia 7 Plus with SDM660 can take RAW images with the Google Camera port. They eventually added support for Motion Photos to the Nokia Camera App which earlier was limited to Google Camera too. 
Moreoever, it could also be possible that the SDM660 used in 7.2 is an upgraded version over the one used in Nokia 7 Plus.

madbilly

Hi @Kartik Gada here's an explanation of how Xiaomi did it: https://www.quora.com/If-the-Qualcomm-Snapdragon-660-processor-supports-till-25-megapixel-camera-then-how-Redmi-is-introducing-48-megapixel-camera-in-smartphones?share=1

Basically the sensor only outputs 12MP images to the SD660 ISP, but then to create a 48MP image the ISP upscales the image back to 48MP! Ridiculous.

Cheers

Kartik Gada

madbilly said:

Hi @Kartik Gada here's an explanation of how Xiaomi did it: https://www.quora.com/If-the-Qualcomm-Snapdragon-660-processor-supports-till-25-megapixel-camera-then-how-Redmi-is-introducing-48-megapixel-camera-in-smartphones?share=1

Basically the sensor only outputs 12MP images to the SD660 ISP, but then to create a 48MP image the ISP upscales the image back to 48MP! Ridiculous.

Cheers

Yup, I am aware of this. But to get that 12MP image it merges 4 pixels to form 1 super pixel. Now, this can be only done when the sensor captures a 48MP image and then does the merging of pixels converting in into a 12MP image. So, it has the data worth 48MP and then makes a 12MP image out of it. The 48MP option should not be enabled on a phone with Samsung GM1 sensor. 😜

OR 

May be merging and converting is done by the sensor itself and SD660 just helps in further processing the converted 12MP image. If this is what's happening then it it looks possible. 

madbilly

Hi @Kartik Gada, it's your second option. It is the camera sensor itself that does the pixel-binning to go from 48MP to 12MP.

This explanation is about what happens on the camera sensor, not in the SoC's image signal processor: https://www.ubergizmo.com/what-is/pixel-binning-camera/

If a camera app on a SD660 phone offers a 48MP photo then it must be the SoC which is upscaling the photo, it does not come directly from the sensor.

Cheers

madbilly

Hi @Kartik Gada,

I think we should stop speculating and read the datasheets: https://www.qualcomm.com/products/snapdragon-660-mobile-platform

Single Camera: Up to 48 MP

Cheers

Hubert Nguyen

Hi, I'm the author of the Ubergizmo article cited above. Just wanted to clarify a few things.

• "binning" as described happens at the sensor level because it is fast (vs. doing it in the SoC). However, the camera software could decide to do it in the ISP, GPU or CPU as well, but we would classify it as image processing or image filtering.
• Yes, Snapdragon 660 supports cameras "up to 48 MP" however, there is a reason why all 2019 large megapixel camera 40,48,64,108 shoot in 1/4 resolution in auto-mode: because their ISP is not fast enough to do multi-frame HDR, noise-reduction and any other multi-frame photo in full esolution.
• We published an article about Snapdragon 865 which will change this game and offer multi-frame image processing at full resolution. Expect a jump in camera image quality. (search for "snapdragon 865 camera" on Ubergizmo)
• Finally, you might want to check our Uber-G Camera IQ mobile camera benchmark/score. You can find it by searching "Uber-G Camera IQ" on our site.

Thanks for posting this link and for your interest in our site.

matthewkuhl

https://community.phones.nokia.com/discussion/comment/134612#Comment_134612

Where are you reading that? Is there a separate 660 for North America?

Qualcomm Spectra 160 Camera ISP: Dual 14-bit ISPs support up to 25MP single or 16MP dual cameras for the ultimate photography and videography experience

i see that below the detailed specs, it lists "up to 48MP" but nothing else supports that unless the 2x ISP is referring to SKUs that support dual ISP

madbilly

Hi @Hubert Nguyen,

Thanks for popping in to say hi! How did you know we were talking about you?! 😆

So would you call the oversampling done by the Nokia 808 and Lumia 1020 (and other PureView cameras except the new Nokia 9 PureView) binning or image processing? I think it's image processing, as it's more sophisticated than the simple 4 to 1 binning which quad bayer sensors do.

Do you have any other thoughts on the current HMD Nokia phones' cameras? HMD have tried many different setups, every phone has a new combination or new software or both.

I see there are no Nokias in your list here, so maybe you haven't tested them yet: https://www.ubergizmo.com/articles/uber-g-camera-iq-score/

Cheers 😃