That ultra-wide camera

Hi all, Let's talk about that other special camera on the 8.3 - the ultra-wide camera.

That ultra-wide camera

madbilly madbilly
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Hi all,

Let's talk about that other special camera on the 8.3 - the ultra-wide camera. At first I was amazed by its specs, but then later I learnt that this is because the launch video was a bit misleading about this... tut tut, naughty @juho 🤨

I heard 12MP 2.8um pixels, both of which are true but not together. The camera normally has 1.4um pixels and can use pixel-binning or some other sort of oversampling to reduce to 3MP camera with 2.8um pixels. A 3MP camera? Hardly anything to get excited about really.

The only glimmer of hope is that this isn't the standard quad-bayer pixel arrangement but is actually using a PureView style oversampling algorithm to go from 12MP to 3MP. We can hope 🤞

Actually one interesting thing about this ultra-wide camera is that the sensor is 16:9 ratio, which is unusual, but I suppose makes sense for a dedicated wide angle camera.

"Advanced" video EIS is mentioned on the datasheet, I wonder what is advanced about it? I'd rather have OIS, any day, because I don't want to lose any of the field of view from the ultra-wide camera I paid for.

ZEISS cinema capture and editor is interesting, I wonder what we will be able to do with that software. Maybe the capture is where the advanced EIS comes in. I'd quite like to have an easy to use video editor on my smartphone, I'm sure there are many available already but the processing takes ages on my x64 multicore desktop so I imagine it would take all day on a smartphone!

Your thoughts?

Cheers 🙂

Comments

  • madbilly madbilly
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    After a bit of research I think that this is the 12MP ultra-wide angle sensor: https://www.ovt.com/sensors/OV12D2Q

    Interesting point is that it contains extra pixels to do EIS without reducing field of view. I'm actually quite interested again! 😃

    It's not quad bayer, it's normal bayer pattern but doesn't use PureView algs for oversampling or lossless zoom, it does it's own pixel-binning on sensor. I wonder if it can use those extra pixels for EIS for noise reduction or lossless zoom in photo mode?

    Cheer 🙂

  • trondjac trondjac
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    Can it be the same ultrawide camera modul that Honor View30 has?

    I think it sounds like they are very alike :-)

  • Karthik 2003 Karthik 2003
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    Does that mean the 7.2 also has a pixel binning 8 MP ultra wide angle sensor??

  • madbilly madbilly
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  • trondjac trondjac
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    Yes, it actually got me more excited, since the performance of this uw camera is fairly good. I know it is also about the signal processor and other things also to make a picture great. But they have chosen a good uw camera module.

    I don't like DxO but here is their review of the camera


  • Nirmal Katariya Nirmal Katariya
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  • madbilly madbilly
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    The main sensor is probably either:

    • Sony IMX686
    • Samsung S5KGW1 or 2
    • Omnivision OV64C

    It could be another brand but that would be very unlikely.

    Cheers 🙂

  • MrBelter MrBelter
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    You shouldn't need any kind of stabilisation on a wide angle lens to be honest, that's one of the benefits of it being a wide angle lens. At 13mm with a steady hand you should be able to get perfect shots at 1/10th of a second easily and consistently. It should be excellent for starscapes, 13mm is a 24 second exposure before you get star trails.

  • madbilly madbilly
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    Thanks @MrBelter, I did think there might be a limit to OIS usefulness on wide angle but I don't have the experience or technical knowledge to know for definite. Thanks for the numbers 😃

    Cheers 🙂

  • MrBelter MrBelter
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    My Canon 17-40mm f4 L doesn't have any form of stabilisation simply because it doesn't need it (although it wont hurt if it does lets be honest) and with the sensor crop that is effectively working as a 27.2-64mm lens and you can get away with some silly slow shutter speeds hand held if you take a deep breath and steady yourself first.

  • madbilly madbilly
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    I suppose the only way to know will be to see this camera in action. I'll have a look at that Honor one linked above and see if there are any others with this sensor with an ultra-wide lens too.

    My hunch is that a handhelf smartphone will naturally wobble more than a large digital camera, just because of inertia, so OIS will benefit the smartphone more. But then the smartphone will probably have more clever algorithms to compensate so they probably come out the same.

    Cheers 🙂

  • madbilly madbilly
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    I just had a look back at the launch video and realised that:

    1. That snowboarding video was taken with the phone in a gyro mount - see the way the horizon is kept level. That's surely even better than OIS!
    2. The video in the woodland seems to be slow motion, which will also masks any stability issues. (the snowboard one is too, so that's a double stability bonus!)

    Cheers 🙂

  • MrBelter MrBelter
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    You're absolutely right you do wobble more with a smartphone than you do with a heavy DSLR but the principal remains the same, a wide angle lens suffers very little from camera shake. When OIS or EIS would be useful is when are in to the bending the physics of it all and trying to get handheld shots of half a second or something bonkers.

    To be honest i wish smartphone had the option to turn it off, once you get past 1/100ths or even slower (when using a smartphone) OIS can start to work against what you are actually doing. When the UK had air shows that you could easily visit once the light was good enough to shoot faster than 1/800ths at ISO 400 i would turn OIS off on my 640mm equivalent lens, its not needed and can at times reduce the sharpness of the image. Shooting handheld at 640mm at 1/80th of a second to get prop blur on a Chinook however deffo needs it lol

  • madbilly madbilly
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    Hi @MrBelter,

    That's interesting, I'd never thought about OIS actually being a disadvantage in some cases but I suppose that makes sense. I can see that turning it off makes sense for a big lens but for a tiny one on a smartphone? I know sometimes we don't need it, but does it ever provide a negative effect on a smartphone.

    Didn't we work out that there's a software switch to control the OIS on the Nokia 8? I seem to remember that in some cases we didn't think the OIS was in operation but in others it was.

    Cheers 🙂

  • MrBelter MrBelter
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    I don't know if it does ever have a negative effect on a smartphone to be honest but I'd still rather have the choice to turn it off. When we were all allowed out i took some photos in Whitby and the shutter speed was 1/2000ths of a second, clearly OIS wasn't needed lol

  • madbilly madbilly
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    1/2000ths on a smartphone?! 🤯 I didn't realise they could physically limit the light gathering/measurement so precisely. Fastest possible in pro mode on the 8 is 1/500; maybe in auto it can go faster.

    No, I can see at that speed that OIS isn't needed, so having the option to turn it off would be nice.

    This shines a light on how restrictive the "pro" mode on the 8 really is. There are more settings for the cameras which are not accessible than ones which are accessible. If HMD really took the camera seriously then they could have made an app like Open Camera able to take advantage of the full range of their cameras capabilities... but instead they gave a flashy UI and meh for settings. Hmm.

    Cheers 🙂

  • MrBelter MrBelter
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    This is the exif from a Nokia 8 shot that was basically shot in to the sun. 1/6000ths of a second shutter 😂

    I don't think there is a limit on an electronic shutter to be honest simply because there is nothing mechanical to move. We all moaned about the Nokia 8 only being f2 but in reality it is a gaping chasm of an aperture and as phones get faster and faster lenses the shutter speed needs to get faster and faster as it is the only way to limit the light hitting the sensor.

    With that mind you can see how the overwhelming majority of the time any form of image stabilisation is absolutely pointless.

  • madbilly madbilly
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    Hi @MrBelter,

    Thanks again for reminding me how limited the "Pro" mode on the Nokia 8 is! 🤣

    Cheers 🙂

  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    @madbilly The pro mode is extremely limited on 1st gen Nokia devices. About the fast shutter speed options, Lumias had a lot of shutter speed options. If I am correct, my Lumia 1320 had an option of 1/32000 of a second or even faster. Nokia 7 Plus in Auto mode can reach a max of 1/96000. :)

  • MrBelter MrBelter
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    Looking at the pro mode on the 7t is does make you wonder what the flip HMD are playing at, this goes from 30 seconds to 1/8000ths of a second.


  • Nirmal Katariya Nirmal Katariya
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    That's the is real Pro mode.

    😅HMD mode is not good.

    Normally this type of picture don't need too much time. But because of bad Pro mode , I tried more than 50+ times for one perfect shot.

    Thanks 🙂

  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    Don't get me wrong here. It is better than what HMD offers but even that 1/8000 is much less than what Nokia offered on Lumias back in 2013. The team that worked on the original Nokia Camera should be formed once again to work on our Nokia Camera app on Android.

  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    Here's the screenshot from Nokia 9 PureView. The shutter speeds range between 1/4000 - 10 seconds. They improved the pro mode with this phone. Same is the fastest shutter speed on Nokia 7.2 but they improved it further and it can be stretched till 20 seconds. These are the signs of improvement. Still they have to do a lot of work.

    I have put my 1320 on charge and will try to share a small clip showing its fast shutter speed options (which are a lot). 😊

  • Kartik Gada Kartik Gada
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    You can check how much more manual control on shutter speeds was available on Lumias. Check all the values and compare it to any phones promode. I believe Nokia had the best.

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