[Let's Talk Imaging] Cameras - Is more really more?

dipankar paul · August 2020

Hello everyone,

It's World Photography Day today, and the perfect opportunity to kick off a debate on our favourite subject!

Today, we're discussing 'more'. Does a higher megapixel camera setup deliver better photos? Do multi-camera systems have the upper hand over a single lens?

The floor is open. Let's bring out all our photography knowledge, expertise, and passion.

Fans, Let's Talk!

pushp kumar · August 2020

Hey @dipankar paul Sir.

Wish you a very happy World photography day😊.

For me Photography is my love🥰. Its gives me inner happiness, when I have my nokia phone in my hand I can't control myself to capture the beauty around us🤩. It's a emotion to me.

Photography is all about your vision, it's a game of lighting , angel, symmetry, composition, the more you observe this things the more your photo become perfect.

Observation in photography plays a very important role to capture a perfect shot, if the angel is not according to you then just change the place and observe that view form the other side, it's helps alot.

In my opinion more megapixel doesn't matter more, if you know the rules of photography then you can capture a better photo with a less megapixel. The more camera setup may help you to capture a photo in a very different aspects like wide angel, potrait, macro, night photography, so more camera setup may help😊👍.

So thank you Nokia for this wonderful conversation about photography 😊

singhnsk · August 2020

Hi @dipankar paul!

Finally we're on that question of the cameras. And I'll share my 2 cents here of what I feel. However, things can be (and will have to be) entirely different from a marketing perspective.

Does a higher megapixel camera setup deliver better photos?

I do not think megapixels are everything. And that's exactly what Nokia demonstrated in its legacy. The times where a mere and weird 6.7MP shooter on the Nokia Lumia 720 was capable of outclassing pretty much any device in the segment with their 8 MP to 13MP cameras.

However, the Nokia's legacy also showed us how powerful the Lumia 1020 and the Nokia 808 were. So, long story short, Megapixels obviously do matter. But so does the size of the sensor, quality of sensor, quality of lens used etc.

In general, I do not think that the 48MP or 64MP being used today are doing anything better for the photography other than giving a marketing perspective. A simple 12MP on a Pixel or an iPhone wins the game almost immediately against any of the 48/64MP or even 108MP sensors which are in use in the today's smartphone scene.

However, if I'd like to have a more MPs with a larger sensor - ABSOLUTELY! More details means more room for the software to play and an overall better image. I think @Kartik Gada will do a better job in rephrasing this 😅

Do multi-camera systems have the upper hand over a single lens?

The answer is a combination of both Yes and a No. The situation is all in the domain of how capable the secondary sensors are and whether or not the primary sensor was compromised (lower quality, cheaper, smaller) in order to make the space for secondary sensors.

I have a recent example of OnePlus Nord. While the company is specifically selling its 6 cameras on the device, the 2 or 3 out of them are at least sheer namesake with nothing to add to a photographer's needs. I own a Nord and I can say... they are planted there for nothing beyond the tagline "6 cameras!". So, an ideal camera setup should be such that:

a decent amazing uncompromising primary camera
(if there's monetary room) a decent wide-angle sensor: Since the captured area will be larger than that of the primary sensor, the wide angle needs to be much more equipped in order to take a decent shareable image. Anything below an 8MP should rather be avoided. I have also seen lack of colors in ultra-wide used by majority of the OEMs, especially in the more affordable segments.
(if there's more monetary room) - a telephoto: to get some decent optical zoom which does not compromise too much on the quality of the capture.

Once again, the key is of the quality of the sensor used. But I can say that in terms of number of sensors, less is better as long as the quality of lesser can be improved by saving the money spent on macro, depth, a namesake wide-angle etc.

For example, adding OIS to the primary sensor is a better deal than a 2MP macro add-on BUT

If you have already decided what's the best for the place of the primary sensor with nothing to improve; and there's still enough budget, a secondary sensor is always welcome. It gives the choice of taking diverse shots while not compromising on anything.

A PureView exception: The above was for the combinations of different kinds of sensors to build a multi-camera setup. These were mixed opinions and results of what the similarly specced sensors on the PureView 9 were doing. I do not own one and I can't speak too much, but that's one domain which is not explored a lot. I guess it can be explored a bit further to bring in more possibilities and see if the domain has potential.

If I think of a human, 2 eyes give us a better vision than what we get with one eye closed. An additional eye with the same specs is improving what we are seeing. So, maybe using multiple sensors doing the same thing can improve photography too? Obviously the key here is all about the software and processing of how efficiently the 2 streams are clipped together and merged to form a single uniform image.

And then comes the competition and marketing...

Obviously an unavoidable area for any brand. And for an average consumer, more is usually better. Consumers are more likely to take a quad camera setup over a dual one, even if the latter is more capable at what it does.

Let's say the market is in bad shape due to the competition doing 2MP macro and 5MP wide-angle compliments to an already 5-8MP primary sensor. No doubt these are there to advertise the "triple camera setup". But quite obviously, there is a much more possibility of a great 12-16MP single-camera setup which will outclass whatever those quad cameras can produce. Now maybe a combination of 5MP + 5 MP + 2MP is still cheaper for an OEM than a single and better 12MP. I don't know!

And considering the growing adoption of of e-commerce, the phones will be bought more on what's on the paper than what's happening in real. A simple comparison at e-commerce platforms will make most consumers not to pick the phone with fewer megapixels and fewer secondary sensors.

So, every brand gotta dip into the domain of higher megapixels and more sensors to remain competitive. But maybe there can be specialized products which are tinkered towards those who are looking for quality. Unless something can be done in the software arena which makes the single camera so phenomenal that nobody could dare say no to it irrespective of what the competition's quad cameras are doing.

Closing:

To me the quality is above quantity and I'll happily settle with lesser MPs and fewer sensors. The obvious condition is of them being well equipped.

krishnasnapshots · August 2020

Does a higher megapixel camera setup deliver better photos?

Ans: Yes, if the sensor size is big & image processing should be well optimised. User can crop the image later remaining a good amount of details in a photograph.

Do multi-camera systems have the upper hand over a single lens?

Ans: No. One good primary camera (like till pixel 3a) is enough, rest is marketing.

Ogar parmar · August 2020

Hello sir.. Happy World Photography day!!

Its a reall good topic to discuss on as in today's world smartphone Photography has become very important and accessible to everyone. As it becomes inconvenient to carry a dslr camera everywhere and everytime.

My openion on smartphone Photography would be like... smartphones already come with great camara and nokia already has the pro mode which gives you more controls. But two thingsbsmartphone camaras miss is variable aperture & optical zooming rest almost everything is now a days present in a phone.

Another thing which i guess matters is the pixel size rather than mage pixels.. even if we get a 12MP sensor which has bigger pixels then it would work better.

Another thing now a days is thr portrait mode which is totally fake and managed using software, which i guess is not needed and it needs another camera hardware. Insted of we have only one camera with optical zooming and if possible variable aperture (only two stage one for normal and other for portrait) it would perform all functions and no need of another camaras except wide angle.

One more software issue i found is auto focusing now a days smartphones fail to focus on smaller subjects i remember Lumia phone were very better in this case.

And the last thing at which nokia is already perfect is LENS ziess lens really makes a difference.

That's all..hope some of my openions help you guys.

Kartik Gada · August 2020

Hello @dipankar paul

"Let's Talk Imaging" has finally arrived. I am super excited to join this discussion and I will share what I think can be a great smartphone camera experience.

I got pulled into smartphone photography only because of Nokia and their amazing camera phones of the past. Used to read a lot of blog that used to focus on the manual settings, how the camera works, the hardware, got to understand how the sensor size affects the image quality and all the basic stuff. The first thing I look in a new phone whenever I get hold of one is the camera and what kind of hardware it has in it. This gives a rough idea of what kind of image quality can one get using that particular hardware.

Now coming to the main questions:

Does a higher megapixel camera setup deliver better photos?

The normal answer would be yes. BUT, not always. There's a limit to everything when it comes to the mobile phone form factor and just adding more mega pixels is not the right way. That's the reason Nokia must have chosen 41MP in the past.

We all know that cramming in more megapixels on a smaller sensor would mean smaller pixel size which will result in low quality images. Yes, the pixels are combined using software to increase the effective pixel size but that also results in low resolution. As an example, 108MP sensor just produces a 27MP image after pixel binning. So, if we are just getting a 27MP actual image then I don't see any use of the 108MP sensor other than for marketing (This applies to both 48MP and 64MP as well).

It would be much beneficial to have a big sensor size but instead of 108 mega pixels, choose a lower resolution which will automatically lead to bigger pixels and that gives us a better camera hardware. This is what Nokia did with PureView devices like the Nokia 808 PureView which had a 1/1.2-inch sensor which is bigger in size compared to 108MP ISOCELL HMX sensor but the resolution is just 41MP.. Now, this same 41MP hardware combined with current improvements and upgrades can easily outclass the competition. *41MP is just for the reference. All I want to say is "Bigger Sensors with not overly high resolutions would make a better camera"

I would definitely love to see a camera phone with high resolution camera but it should not equipped with the current crop of high res sensors available in the industry. It should be for the real benefit and not just for marketing.

Good old memories: "More Than Your Eyes Can See.. More Than Your Eyes Can See.." Such a beautiful song. ❤️

For most phones, I see 20-23MP as a sweet spot and this resolution on a big sensor would be ideal for a good camera centric smartphone. This is just the hardware part and in 2020 camera software has to be a lot powerful and companies just cannot rely on pure hardware. But this is for another topic.

I tried my best @singhnsk 😅😊

Do multi-camera systems have the upper hand over a single lens?

YES! They do now. BUT, the secondary sensors shouldn't be just for the sake of marketing. Secondary sensors should be added only if they are really improving the camera. People switch to telephoto or wide angle camera for occasional shots and these two should be of better quality if added. Also, most of the time we just click photos using the main sensor so this one should not be compromised for adding those extra secondary cameras. All the secondary cameras should have Auto Focus and not be of a fixed focus type.

Wide Angle Camera:

As @singhnsk said a wide angle camera should not be below 8MP in resolution. He is correct but even 8MP is still too low for such a Wide Angle view and most of the times there is not much detail left in the images but then it can be used on devices that come at a low price.

A wide angle camera should be at least 12MP and higher in resolution (The higher the resolution and bigger the sensor the better will be the image). Wide Angle option is more useful than the telephoto and it should be put in most phones that come with multiple cameras. A Wide Angle camera should be chosen over a depth sensor to be put on a smartphone.

Telephoto Camera/Periscope

Some companies are taking ZOOOOOOMING a bit to far where it still isn't able to reach. I don't want this to be done on Nokias. A decent optical zoom level of 2x 3x 5x is more than enough. We don't want to reach SPACE. Whatever resolution of telephoto camera is used the quality should be the priority. There is no limit on the resolution if the budget permits.

Monochrome Camera

This should used instead of the Depth Camera in most smartphones. Many would click monochrome photos and this is also more useful than the depth camera that just adds to the cost while providing no real benefit. Also, it can be made to click photos like the Nokia 8 which used to combine images from both RGB and Monochrome sensors for better quality. This if brought in budget segment can also help in marketing. 😉

The three secondary camera options are the most useful ones and must have on a smartphone. These should be included in various combinations. The other two below are less important and one of them should not be used anymore.

Macro Camera:

This is the one currently trending a lot and almost all companies including our beloved Nokia Mobile have started to add the macro camera on its devices. But, this is a completely different type of photography and I think not many would be using the macro mode on a regular basis. Most would just play with it in the initial days of their purchase and then just forget that such a sensor ever exits on their phones. This does not mean it is a sensor not to be included in a phone. I love to look at things up close and I enjoy clicking macros but the resolution of this sensors is just too low and the images don't come out to be good. So, maybe it would be better to tie up with some camera accessory maker who can make custom external lenses or Nokia smartphones which are then shipped with the phone OR

I have a Lumia 1320 which has a 5MP f2.4 lens and current crop of Nokia smartphones like Nokia 2.3 and Nokia 7 plus for example. I have noticed that Nokia 7 plus with its f1.7 aperture cannot get as close to the subject as the Nokia 2.3 with f2.2 and Nokia Lumia 1320 with f2.4 can get. Nokia Lumia 1320 can focus the closes out of the three smartphones and has a small aperture of f2.4. So, if focusing distance depends on the aperture size then I would suggest creating a 12MP sensor with f3.0 aperture that uses pixel binning to give a 4MP image. Pixel binning will solve the problem of light to some extent. Honestly, I don't know if this will work but this was just an idea. If macro photography has to be pushed on smartphones than maybe we need something like this. This also seems expensive and if done will only be possible to put on a flagship.

Depth Camera

I am completely against the use of those low resolution Depth Sensors. I hate them to the bottom of my heart as they are not needed anymore. Nokia 7 Plus can take perfect portraits with help from the telephoto camera, Nokia 8 can take perfect portraits using the secondary monochrome sensor. Same goes for many other devices so, I think depth sensors are of no use and they just take up space and also increase the price for no actual benefit. If portrait shots can be taken with a single front facing camera then it should be possible for single rear facing camera as well. Google Pixel is the best example.

Nokia 9 PureView Multiple Camera Array

This was a unique take on Smartphone photography and it should be explored further. Some of the downsides of Nokia 9 PureView can be fixed overtime as the processors improve and the tech develops. Also, an addition of a Wide Angle and Telephoto lens alongside the camera array would make it more flexible for average consumers. The software is the key here and even in auto mode the phone should be capable to create very high quality photos so that even average consumers stay satisfied with the image quality. This will be the best Multiple camera system but it will also increase the number of cameras at back. But why not? Such devices and innovation should exist. 😁

Better Communication over Fake Marketing Hype

I don't see marketing as a huge threat if a company is able to communicate how its Single, Dual or Triple camera system is better than what the competition offers. Yes, more cameras will help in marketing but one thing is sure that most consumers would choose a phone with Wide and Telephoto secondary cameras over Wide+Depth+Macro options in the mid range. A Dual Camera phone under Rs.10000 INR would be preferred if it has a Main+Wide/Telephoto.Monochrome over just Main + Depth. Obviously, it also depends on the cost and those calculations will be done by the company but any combo excluding the depth sensor would be a better choice.

If I have to choose a mid range smartphone with Quad Camera setup then I would go for one which has Wide+Telephoto+Monochrome as secondary cameras.

All in all, a smartphone company should focus on giving a very good main camera and then focus on what to offer as the secondary camera options out of Wide, Monochrome, Telephoto and Macro. The secondary sensors could be low in resolution depending on the price of the smartphone but it should be made sure that the quality isn't compromised. Also, using a Depth Sensor should be stopped in 2020.

Thanks 😁

Yogithesailor · August 2020

In my humble opinion, A bigger sensor should always get priority over raw mp count.

Also, I hate the stupid trend of 2mp macro and depth sensors. Ideally there should be a regular one, supplemented by a good ultra wide with autofocus, and lastly a telephoto one.

And the selfie camera should have autofocus. That's it.

Mr. Evading · August 2020

I'm not used to this forum but I'll try to make it concise :-)

Nope, I don't think higher numbers alone correlate with better quality. The main thing they do is to increase the file size and get images in resolutions that are impractical in most cases. I doubt folks would shoot pictures fitting the size of a cinema screen for examples. Most of the >12/13 MP cameras capture in 12MP mode by default too.

I'd rather have a slightly bigger sensor with a good light sensitivity, paired with a calibrated auto mode and a more detailed pro mode with extra steps in the jumper points. I haven't used the 2019 lineup but I own a 7 plus and I'd like to see more steps in shutter speed for example. The hardware is much more capable.

As for multi-camera setup, yeah it does improve the functionality by providing a broader set of perspectives and flexing ground for enthusiasts; but only when implemented nicely. For example,

A) A 12MP f/1.6 1.4micron one. The largr aperture and large pixel size would ensure enough light gets on the sensor.

B) A 12MP f/1.8 Wide angle if possible. And the reason for not going with a standard 8MP is the photo will cover a wider area, it makes sense to have a bit more resolution room. Also, f/1.8 as many wide angle shots are likely to capture uneven light, so having raw sensor data could help the processing algorithms refine which areas to be kept dark (shadows) and which to expose more.

C) Maybe a Telephoto/BW. I don't use these and others like macro so can't say much about them.

As for depth sensors, it's fine as long as they are treated more as an accessory sensor camera like the under-display optical fingerprint sensors, and not counted just for increasing the camera count.

Lastly, the UI matters too. Lumias had a great UI and while the present pro camera app on android resembles it, minor refines like the 'value' texts having a gliding animation as they changed (in lumia), and fluid transitions between pro mode and auto mode are welcome.

Also, those AR gimmicks should have a toggle in the settings to permanently disable them so app doesn't get a hit on performance loading their assets (this is very noticeable in FIH made Nokias of 2018).

Lastly, they should expose the camera APIs properly. The auxiliary cameras should be exposed with reference to this:

https://source.android.com/devices/camera/multi-camera

Thanks.

MdSadique · August 2020

https://community.phones.nokia.com/discussion/60267/lets-talk-imaging-cameras-is-more-really-more

Does a higher megapixel camera means a better image ?

Ans:- No, not necessarily bigger megapixels doesn't ensure better image but ensure more details. I believe a good sensor and good camera software optimisation is more important.

Do multi camera lens have a upper hand over a single lens ?

Yes more camera lens provide more versatility then it's good but if it doesn't then there's no point. Versatility is good it gives the user a lot of options to play around , a wide angle lens give a wider field of view , a telephoto lens let us zoom into distant objects so i think versatility is important . But as I said if we merge 5 depth sensors just to improve the depth of field and portrait there's not much benifit . A good software can do that with a single lens. So multiple camera lens are a welcome if that makes the setup versatile. Also if u ask a person to choose a single lens phone or a multi camera lens it's obvious most of them will chose multiple camera setup

singhnsk · August 2020

Would be interesting to know what HMD thinks. So, @dipankar paul, can this turn into a 2-way interaction somehow? :)

Back in 2019, @WesleyLee said the following about the trend for higher megapixel counts: I'm direct quoting him. For anybody who's new, this QNA can be found right HERE.

This is very good question. Image industry indeed is still seeing two paths in parallel – one is toward combining a bigger sensor (1/2” or even bigger) with more mega-pixels, the other is to stay with 12MP, bigger pixel size (1/2.55”, 1.4um) sensor. Both these routes have their own advantage – for example - 12MP bigger pixels sensor have dual PD feature which can enable the fast focus of speed in low light scene, lens design is relatively easy than high mega pixel one, ISP and image processing can leverage what legacy has been developed and continue to improve etc, but high mega pixel sensor is a bigger size sensor (for example 48MP is 1/2”, 64MP is even bigger one), although each individual pixel size is less, but after quad-pixel binning, it actually combines as bigger pixel size than 12MP, and it naturally makes the high megapixel photo output possible. Just use the 12MP output (such as 48MP and quad pixel binning to 12MP), the effective resolution is better which allow you to preserve more details on the resulting image.

While both these routes have their own advantages, the final image deliver is also dependant on the software algorithms and the professional level of image tuning. In 2020, you will continue to see the high MP trend, but some might choose bigger pixel or a mix of both.

So, that's another perspective. If I compare the images from my Nokia 7 and the Nokia 7.2, the Nokia 7.2 does better images in indoors as compared to the 7. I agree that the 7 was a 2017 product whereas the 7.2 a 2019, but when comparing the final output of 16MP on the Nokia 7 vs the 12MP (binned) on the 7.2, the larger 48MP sensor has done an overall better job..

So, if I revise my previous response, the higher MP counts have somewhat improved the mid-range products, maybe not so much on the flagship level? Maybe it is wiser to call these cameras as 12MP//16MP rather than 48MP//64MP because the binning at sensor level never gives a real 48MP output :) It is a contusing tech and a lot more goes into a great camera than the megapixels :))

dipankar paul · August 2020

Disclaimer: This is me speaking purely as a photographer.

To me, megapixels are the glamour end of the story. The fundamentals of photography are built on controlling how much light the photographer can coax in through the lens, and a sensor at the heart of the camera then processing an output.

Example, my DSLR produces 12.3 MP images, without a pixel out of place in all kinds of light.

While DSLR photography vs smartphone photography = apples vs oranges, the basics remain the same. A larger sensor will always trump a higher megapixel rating.

That said, let's also be practical - I'm all for slapping a one-inch or larger sensor on a smartphone, but that's difficult to execute with the ever-decreasing real estate available on the back of smartphones today.

And this is where AI comes in.

Like Wesley's comment above, which @singhnsk shared:

... the final image deliver is also dependent on the software algorithms and the professional level of image tuning.

Today's smartphones rely heavily on algorithms doing the heavy lifting.

Do I as a photographer prefer this? No.

Do I see the benefit of AI in democratising camera tech? Yes.

joe367 · August 2020

https://community.phones.nokia.com/discussion/60267/lets-talk-imaging-cameras-is-more-really-more

I'm saying this from my experience of using Nokia 9 Pureview, yes it takes some of the best photos (especially in RAW) on any mobile device on sale. But when it comes to the whole capturing experience, it has a lot of room for improvement. What an average customer want from a mobile camera is reliability. Whenever they take out the phone to take a photo or record a video, no matter what the conditions are, they should be able to get a decent output. At the end of the day all that matters is the moment, everything else regarding the photo comes second. And social media platforms compress the photos anyway 😅

Yes there are a lot of people who take photography seriously who would like to have all features packed into the camera system, who want their photos to be color accurate etc . They only make up a small section of market. The remaining 90% use their phones to take photos on birthdays, their family, friends, pets etc. For them, good software is better than actual camera hardware. Also there is always a size constraint when it comes to mobile devices. However hard we try, we cannot make a mobile device that can replace professional cameras.

As for higher megapixel count, yes it comes with lot of advantages. But, I read somewhere that higher megapixel sensor comes with certain issues. Like, in Samsung S20 Ultra there where focusing issues. Even for latest Note 20 Ultra there is a slight shutter lag. While taking closeup shots, we wont get whole subject in focus, large file size...things like that. Same applies to quantity of cameras. More smartphone reviewer's have done videos in last two-three months on the same topic 'more is not the way to go'. People do consider their opinion before making purchase decisions. This is also the reason behind good reviews for Pixel and iPhone devices. They keep things simple and consistent. 3 camera's is the sweet-spot: A regular, wide angle and telephoto with consistent colors throughout. And a front camera with slightly wide field of view. Wide angle should be of equal or higher resolution compared to standard one. And 12MP is still the Main lens should have Optical Image Stabilization.

Conclusion: Yes it is okay to make limited edition devices that offers the latest and greatest tech. But I dont think it'll do good when in comes to sales if it's less reliable. Go for higher megapixel only if we have the solution to inherent problems.

I like to capture and edit photos and videos on my 9 Pureview , but remaining 3 of my family members would only go for 7.2 as it is more reliable and they like to keep things simple.🙂

RPJumde · August 2020

Larger/higher megapixel in mobile cameras is quite misleading. As almost all of these camera sensors use pixel binning and or reduction of the individual pixel size.

So unless we get mobile cameras with the real large size sensors, we can't match the quality of DSLR. One of the approaches to solving this issue is the AI processing in mobile cameras. Unfortunately, there is limited manual control in this process.

Another unique approach is what Nokia9Pureview introduced. Here five 12mp sensors were used which fires at the same time followed by image fusion process. On the paper, you should get a photo which is actually equivalent to the 60mp. Indeed, the outcome (sometimes) is mind-blowing and it's hard to say that the photos are taken from the mobile camera. If improved further, this approach has a great potential to improve the quality of mobile photography and to match to a certain extent to the DSLR cameras.

Unfortunately, the company behind this technique (Light.co) is out of the smartphones market.

I still hope that there will be new technologies which will revolutionise mobile photography in the very near future.

Till then, it would be great if some of the mobile cameras developers use a one-inch sensor with optical image stabilisation in the smartphone body. In this ideal case, there will be no need of a multiple-camera setup.

One of the solution to fit this kind of big sensor in the mobile device is to reduce the size of the battery. Indeed we will soon see a coin size batteries in the smartphones as the research in this direction is progressing quite fast.

Kartik Gada · August 2020

https://community.phones.nokia.com/discussion/comment/174316#Comment_174316

Thanks for becoming a part of this debate and I totally agree. 😁

It is difficult to put bigger sensors when the phones have become slimmer. However, the camera bumps are becoming bigger and bigger. They are currently in trend and companies are pushing it to make their smartphones appear as "camera centric phones" and people are accepting it too. So, it shouldn't be difficult to have a bump at the back that also helps in improving the underlying hardware. Hence, use of bigger sensors should be explored and with use of AI it can get even better.

We also don't need phones to be like the Panasonic CM1 or Glaxy K Zoom which were more like bricks. Although it would be acceptable to have a raised camera housing that holds a bigger sensor with a good balance of resolution and pixel size. That way, at least the hardware side of the camera becomes solid which IMO is the most important aspect.

The aperture is also important and adding a variable aperture would make things even more exciting. (Hey, Nokia N86 8MP!) A Xenon flash if it can be accomodated inside the camera bump would make a good comeback. I understand it requires a lot of power but then we also have super fast charging technologies and bigger batteries.

AI and advanced software tricks are now useful for a phone camera as most consumers rely heavily on the phone's auto mode to click photos. This is here to stay and will keep improving. Having a switch to disable the AI processing and other such features would be an added bonus.

@dipankar paul Do you have more details about the 12MP Ultra Wide camera of the Nokia 8.3 5G which has 2.8 microns size Super Pixels. Is it achieved after pixel binning? Is it possible for you to share more details about this?

tuhin koley · August 2020

I am not a expert in image processing or photography tech. Giving my opinion with my previous experiences and as a person who loves to take photos. According to me megapixel count is a bit overrated. Some times it gives you loose less excessive crops on a subject but without proper tuned image processing software it has not always produce proper results(when subject is known & you don't want to crop the scene to extract your subject). With proper tuning of hardware and sw even lower megapixel can produce better photos than higher megapixel. That is why photos of iphone , pixel is still superior than most of its rivals having more megapixel. Now let's talk about pureview.. what it's like & what's my expectations of next flagship as a camera centric phone. I am taking its multi-camera setup as the basis of my discussion:

Pros of existing set up I experienced:

1) Day light photos are sometimes comparable to DSLR. I don't see any other mobile produce such results if we consider tuning the raw

2) phenomenal dynamic range and details

3) noise less raw that can actually be used for editing..saw many raw comparisons .. nothing is like pureview

4) natural wide angle..I don't know due its camera set up or not, as per my opinion N9 tends to cover more canvas area than a single camera set up

5) Distributed cameras helps in reducing the ugly camera bumps and gives it the best camera design setup ( and no it's does not give me that arachnophobia vibe which some of the reviewers pointed out)

6) noise less darker/ lowlight raws (if you consider low light as low light)

Cons of the existing set up experienced:

1) image processing time. Yes it needs patience

2) less versatility.. missing the telephoto lense as I like to take macro shots

3) if you want treat low light as day light images then this camera set-up is lacking

4) video quality is really not upto flagship level..stock slow Mo and time lapse isn't really match to its rivals..

Now expectations and way forward:

1) existing clean camera design without bump should be continued

2) if technically possible this multi-camera set up should be continued with optimal tuning of hardware and software..if image processing time can not be reduced then intermediate solution can be adopted. For examples say instead of five camera took one RGB and two monochrome : all of 20MPs to see if image stiching time can reduced with same/improved image quality..rest two camera housing may be used to have one 12 MP telephoto and one 12 MP wide angle (to please the mass) lense ..tof and flash should be as it is

3) if and only if aforesaid of image stiching modalities are not viable/practical then only go for higher megapixel main camera(again to please the mass and reviewers), one monchrome camera, one telephoto, one wide angle, & figure out what can be put at the other camera housing

4) OIS in atleast the main RGB camera in any case

5) optimised camera sw with pro - mode as without an optimised sw, any hardware setup is of no use

6) finally less bezel front display (without any notch please), atleast 256gb/512 gb storage and a functional finger print scaner is needed [out of the topic but I think I should mention]

Therefore, I personally prefer to have the existing multi camera setup with its full potential. However if and only if that is not technically/financially viable then traditional multi camera setup like other flagships may be adopted. However in 2nd case I will be very little excited as the unique journey against the main stream will end without reaching to its ultimate goal.

MdSadique · August 2020

As we are talking images cameras and all can we have the ability to pause videos while recording now to atleast those phones which are running Android 10 😁.

MdSadique · August 2020

Will see how much hmd is interested in actions rather than only words

singhnsk · August 2020

Hi @dipankar paul

The use of AI definitely makes things easier for novices like myself who aren't very familiar (or even fond) of fiddling through the values. Most often, I just want to press the capture button and be presented with a great real-like image. AI definitely makes like easier for millions of smartphone users, majority of whom are just casual users trying to take better selfies and landscapes for their social media sharing. This is very different from DSLRs which are only purchased by serious photographers.

I do appreciate the use of AI into photography. And some will appreciate AI even more when their selfies come out as if they were edited by a professional. That's the nice side of the AI. The other side of it is that it can often take images away from the real scene, adding dramatic effects and extra smoothness. So, I'll agree with @Kartik Gada that a simple control at how strongly the AI algos work up will allow people to balance the outcome based on their shooting style and the scene.

That said, let's also be practical - I'm all for slapping a one-inch or larger sensor on a smartphone, but that's difficult to execute with the ever-decreasing real estate available on the back of smartphones today.

I wanna differ a bit and expand it - aren't we seeing some of the largest camera housings on every smartphone these days? The marketing perspective of mult-camera setups has made product designers and engineers find (or compromise?) space to fit over 4-5 individual sensors at the back of the device. So, is there really a decreasing real estate? Or is it that the number of possible candidates to fit into that space are increasing? And that brings us back to the topic - the use of multi-camera setups.

As much as I want to request for additional attention being given to the primary sensor, making it larger, I also want the Nokia phones to not become a niche i.e. for only those who know how cameras work and why a single sensor can outclass the use of several. Yes, I'll happily take the legendary Nokia once in a while which can demonstrate some of the breakthroughs in smartphone photography i.e. the PureView king.

I will add though that probably we once again need a breakthrough which will reduce the attention on megapixels and focuses on other areas. I can't forget how the Lumia 920 brought OIS into the scene :) Variable aperture maybe? I'm not sure how successful it has been so far.

Ashish Hunkeri · August 2020

https://community.phones.nokia.com/discussion/comment/174581#Comment_174581

I think high or more mega pixel is only matters when someone really wants to print his photography work because there is need of more resolution. And I see hardly few 1-2% of total user may print there photograph or use for submission in contest or something. And other who still use high mega pixel images they do nothing other than posting pictures on social media which may not higher than 1350*1080 or 2k resolution max. So it's totally marketing strategy of brands to make some noise for More mega pixel count. There is no need of More mega pixel if they are not giving bigger sensor(which we had in 808 and Lumia 1020). Only more mega pixel and bigger sensor makes sense to claim as photography friendly camera phone.

For me only 3 camera setup are more than enough. Main primary camera, Wide angle and telephoto lens. I don't think so every user uses macro cam even if its available on phone. We already seen even single 12mp camera do magic if there good software processing.

nitinkachare · August 2020

I am not a good photographer. It's just my opinion based on my experience and who captured photos very few times mostly when visiting new places and travelling. Megapixel does not matter but the Image sensor, Image sensor size and pixel size matters. The current era is playing the megapixel game i.e.Rear Camera 48MP=12*4(Pixel Binning), 64=16*4(Pixel Binning), etc and Front Camera 24MP=6*4(Pixel Binning), 32MP=8*4(Pixel Binning). I would prefer good results of pixel binning image rather than actual megapixel output. Everyone prefer pixel binning images rather than high megapixel images.

Main Camera optimisation matters a lot and then wide-angle, macro and telephoto lens. Wide-Angle and Telephoto are actually a good thing. Camera optimization that is well skin tones detection, lights, colours, focus, object details, background details, edge detection in bokeh, details in low light. If the above basic things are not good then doesn't matter which sensor used and how much megapixel camera on the phone. After that good optimization is done on video recordings that matters(We don't have many features i.e. fps options in slow motions, 1080p/60fps, etc). How well third-party application support for video calling quality that matters. In Lumia, there was well-maintained video calling application was Skype, Lumia Pro Mode was excellent. Raw Image Editing is a good thing but not everyone is as capable in edit images. I would prefer the quality of cameras in each case than quantity.

singhnsk · August 2020

To discuss further the scope of multi-camera setups and to continue the discussion, I have a few additional questions. Okay, maybe this is just an excuse for me to get a chance to ask some silly questions 🤠

What are possible alternatives from a multi-camera setup? If competition is doing it and it is helping them bring more attention to their products, do you think consumers (or you as a consumer) will still give attention to a phone with fewer cameras? Will you consider a phone with single main camera and bundled high quality, well fitting lens attachments (zoom, wide-angle, macro) to add versatility to your phones?
What are you ready to compromise to make space for a larger sensor? Dropping the headphone jack, reduced battery capacity, a bumpier camera housing, a thicker phone overall; what's one thing which you'll happily take in accept for a better camera hardware?
How much does the CPU matter? I have seen several cases where phone clones with same camera hardware had varied image outputs. The only difference is of the CPU used. This is the infamous Snapdragon vs Exynos. How and why does the CPU make a difference in end results? Will giving a new CPU to an older camera hardware give better results?

While writing #1, a thought came into my mind, idk if that's practical, but can there be a single main camera with an in-built mechanical top cover with a wheel to select the lens we are aiming to use. Will be quite complex, with good chances that dust will find a way in, but is that possible in the first place?

nitinkachare · August 2020

@singhnsk Since last year I have seen three and four cameras on the phone and many people have bought it. This is a good way to attract consumers but is it really every consumer using all those cameras in daily life🤔.

This may be my personal view but I only like wide-angle, telephoto lenses and I don't like macro sensors. I can say based on my experience with many consumers from last year. If I look at the gallery of those consumers, I will only see photos with the main camera and I have seen them many times. And in a very rare case, I have seen that consumers use those extra cameras (Wide Angles 2/10, Don't ask about Macro Sensor). Some of them even do not know which camera works for which feature.

The consumer only wants to show four cameras on their own handset, so that they can feel that their handset has every camera that provides competition. The consumer will never like to take anything less but the things that do not have more importance in daily life or does not make much difference and that thing will not work longer. I personally do not like the 2-megapixel sensor even if it is a depth sensor.

A single-camera cannot do the work of four cameras, but if we get to do different things by adding more cameras then that is not a bad thing either. And In Future, I don't know how many more cameras we get on the mobile and The consumer will get worried about which camera the photos are coming out🤣. I have an example of a consumer and he told me that three of his cameras were not working simultaneously while capturing images😊. So I had to explain to him one by one, which camera works for what feature😅. After that he said to me-photo kismain acchi dikh rahi hain bas wahi use karenge baki sab bad main dekhenge😂.

Kartik Gada · August 2020

About the bump. This is the photo of Note 20 Ultra from iFixit. People are slowly accepting bigger bumps. So, it should be fine to have camera bumps on phones that allow to use larger sensor. 🙂

SirFaceFone · August 2020

Honestly I do not care if there's a giant **** circle in the back of the phone. Give me that Oreo disc any day baby!

HMD's image processing/algorithms simply aren't that great, no matter how many megapixels or 2 megapixel cameras they attach to their phones. And I don't see them ever matching their competitors' 'AI' imaging prowess unless they get a massive imaging R&D budget or something major happens in the field of imaging that will allow every OEM to make spectacular image processing. They simply don't have the resources.

I still think however, they can surpass the Nokia LUMIA 1020's legacy by making a phone with a gigantic sensor, but the company seems to have a grudge towards the Windows Phone Lumias of the past for some reason and would rather follow forgettable design trends than set one.

SirFaceFone · September 2020

That said, let's also be practical - I'm all for slapping a one-inch or larger sensor on a smartphone, but that's difficult to execute with the ever-decreasing real estate available on the back of smartphones today.

To add to @Kartik Gada 's comment, why not make an 'Ultra/Pro' version with a giant camera housing? These OEMs didn't seem to have any problem doing just that 🤔 (the Mate40 Pro even looks like a 1:1 copy of the Lumia 1020 lol)

gaurang patkar · September 2020

I don't think only higher megapixels is equal to higher picture quality. If that would be the case why wouldn't fullframe DSLR makers make higher numbers of megapixels? Why does Samsung make 64 and 108 MP sensors and use 13 MP ones on their flagship? Clearly camera science is not that easy as counting megapixels. Same about the number of cameras. It depends on how the technology is implemented and how the algorithms are used. HMD in past has made excellent use of 5 cameras even though the app was buggy. Telephoto and wide angle camera is also useful at times. Its good to see various combinations of cameras in smartphones used to achieve different results like one may like pentacamera on Nokia 9 Pureview while other may like Telephoto or Wideangle lens. I personally like Nokia 9 PV one of its kind in the market.

nokianchetan · September 2020

I am joining this lately and everyone almost covered everything 😀

1)Does a higher megapixel camera setup deliver better photos?

Ans: Not Everytime

In midrange to flagship phones there are lot 48MP Camera phone which use pixel binning technology but due to different sensors, Defferent lens & different image processing images look different

Eg. ₹15000 phone with 48MP or 64MP & XYZ sensor do not perform that much compare to ₹40000 phone with 48MP with Good Sony/Samsung Sensors But then there is pixel/apple with 13MP perform better than all

In India People have a mindset that Megapixel decides camera quality

2) Do multi-camera systems have the upper hand over a single lens?

Ans : Yes

Always good to have extra good wide angle lens and telephoto lens

I hope in future we will see a phone capturing wide telephoto and normal shots from the single lens 😀

nathaniel emmanuel · September 2020

Hey guys pls I need ur help

I'm using the Nokia 2.3 the camera is ok but not enough

I tried installing gcam for Nokia 2.3 but it seems not no work

Can anyone help me out on how to improve my camera ......thanks 🙌🏽

aarif rao · September 2020

I don't care for megapixel but I care for image processing in my nokia 6.1 plus.

And image processing of nokia camera app is really bad😂

And I can't install Google camera because the vendor image is outdated from Android 9😂😂

I just don't know what to say in this thread😂lol

Franz-27 · September 2020

Megapixels are not everything..the main pro is more detail in the image that could be very usefull when you need to crop the image but we don't need 108 mp cameras or crazy stuffs like that, much more important is the size of the sensor, the size of the single pixel to capture more light also in difficult conditions.

About the multi-camera system I can say that ultrawide and periscope optical zoom sensors are very very useful cause you have much more flexibility than a just single camera, but you need do use high quality sensor to have great results. No need of macro, depth or monochrome sensors, those are just for numbers. Also imaging process is so important (just look the google camera results).

Kartik Gada · December 2022

Nice questions @singhnsk

I think we all can agree that triple camera setup is enough and is also the most flexible multi camera setup. The other sensors are just to increase the number on the spec sheet. I personally would be fine having less number of cameras at the back of my phone if the resources saved are used to improve other aspects of the phone. Also, most users as @nitinkachare said don't even play with the camera ui and don't know how to switch to different modes and even if they do, it really is a rare thing. Maybe companies know this and hence they market their products as having 48MP/64MP/108MP Quad Camera setups and people make their purchase based on the numbers of main camera mentioned.

Coming to the bundled lens attachments, it depends on how.good the lenses are and if they are of a good quality then I wouldn't mind carrying it around.

I would prefer having a camera bump over excluding useful features.

I don't know about the role of different CPUs in delivering different results.

The rotating inner lens would be even more challenging to make and will also take up more space. ZEISS had a similar patent where the lenses could rotate but I don't think it is possible to do it on a slim modern smartphone. Maybe make an external case like attachment that has a rotating mechanism with different lenses.

[Let's Talk Imaging] Cameras - Is more really more?

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